The Saints And The Resurrection Of The Body

[kafka]

Servant of Secret Fire posted the following in the Question & Answer thread. Since I am not able to post there I decided to start a discussion here since I have some insight into the question and some of it is speculative:

"This has been puzzling me for a while. It is probably one of the mysteries of heaven that we won't understand till we [hopefully] get there, but here goes anyway.

The saints enjoy the beatific vision and yet they are not in their glorified bodies and therefore God's plan for them has not yet come to fulfillment. Will heaven "get better" for them at the end of time? That seems wrong as what could be better than the beatific vision, but then again the resurrection of the body is what God's plan of salvation is all about isn't it?"

For the Saints, Timeless and Placeless Heaven is "continuilly getting better" since they see, know, experience and are with God, face to face, without impediment, without medium, intuitively and we all know God is Infinite, is Eternity, etc. Also, the Sainst of Heaven are not static. They continue to learn, they continue to increase and develop in holiness. They are able to excercise free will, though not able to sin, or desire to sin since they see God.

Now, at this moment the souls of Heaven are seperated from their bodies and this in a sense causes an incompleteness in the Saints. Man is soul-body-spirit (btw this is a reflection of the Trinity) and so he is meant to experience God and Heaven in his complete person and nature. They are still more happy than anyone on earth can imagine, and their desire is at rest, but not completely so until they are risen and assumed into

The New Heaven! Yes there is more! After the general ressurection and judgment (in the distant future) the First Heaven ends and God creates a New (Second) Heaven and a New Earth! For God has something even better in mind:

[Isaiah]
{65:17} For behold, I create the new heavens and the new earth. And the former things will not be in memory and will not enter into the heart.
{65:18} But you will be glad and exult, even forever, in these things that I create. For behold, I create Jerusalem as an exultation, and its people as a joy.

[2 Peter]
{3:13} Yet truly, in accord with his promises, we are looking forward to the new heavens and the new earth, in which justice lives.

[Isaiah]
{66:22} For in like manner as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will cause to stand before me, says the Lord, so will your offspring and your name stand.

Revelation
{21:1} I saw the new heaven and the new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.

~The current Heaven (or first Heaven) is for souls only. Contrary to belief the only two persons in the current Heaven are Jesus and Mary: "Rise up, O Lord, into your resting place. You and the ark of your sanctification." (Psalm 132:8). At the general resurrection the First Heaven is emptied of its souls and it comes to an end. Then the Just are given their new bodies and God creates a New Heaven and New Earth. It is fitting that God create a New Heaven since the Saints will be given new bodies fitting for the New Heaven. The New Earth, in my opinion is not only a New Earth but a whole New Universe/Cosmos.

Also notice in Revelation 21:1 it says, "and the sea is no more." The sea refers to Purgatory. It ends since their is no more need for it.

And so not only does the Heaven get better, but a whole New Heaven is created.

Please discuss. . .

Edited March 15, 2008 by kafka

[picchick]

This is an interesting take.

I am not sure that I see the same way you do though. I thought that the "new heavens" that scripture speaks of is the heaven that Jesus opens up through his crucifixion. The current is not for souls only for Mary was assumed soul AND body as you have said.

I do agree that Heaven gets better after the resurrection because not only do our souls enjoy it but so do our bodies.

I may add to this as the thread continues

[kafka]

[quote name='picchick' post='1477687' date='Mar 15 2008, 05:58 PM']This is an interesting take.

I am not sure that I see the same way you do though. I thought that the "new heavens" that scripture speaks of is the heaven that Jesus opens up through his crucifixion. The current is not for souls only for Mary was assumed soul AND body as you have said.[/quote]
take a closer look at those verses I quoted:

"I [b]create [/b]the new heavens and the new earth. And the [b]former [/b]things will not be in memory and will not enter into the heart."

"we are [b]looking forward [/b]to the new heavens and the new earth,"

"For in like manner as the new heavens and the new earth, [b]which I will cause [/b]to stand before me,"

"I saw the new heaven and the new earth. For the[b] first heaven and the first earth passed away[/b]"

Most of these verses are taken from prophetic chapters and contexts of the Bible and are understood as things that will occur in the future. Plus the Revelation verse is at the very end of the Book and placed after a sequence of events.

The current Heaven is not for the bodies of the Saints only their souls with the exception of Jesus and Mary, just as the current Hell is not for the bodies of the damned for their souls with the pending exception of the Antichrist and the the False Prophetess (the Antimary):

Revelation
{19:20} And the beast was apprehended, and with him the false prophetess, who in his presence caused the signs, by which she seduced those who accepted the character of the beast and who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the pool of fire burning with sulphur.

~the beast of course is Antichrist. Pool of fire is Hell of course.

Then after the General Resurrection and Judgment a New Hell will be created for the bodies and souls of the damned.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1477695' date='Mar 15 2008, 04:14 PM']Most of these verses are taken from prophetic chapters and contexts of the Bible and are understood as things that will occur in the future. Plus the Revelation verse is at the very end of the Book and placed after a sequence of events.[/quote]
That is not the only way to read those prophetic texts. In fact, in the Byzantine tradition there has always been a heavy focus on what has come to be called, "realized eschatology," i.e., the idea that the end times have already been made manifest, and that they are being experienced here and now in the life and worship of the Church.

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1477701' date='Mar 15 2008, 06:22 PM']That is not the only way to read those prophetic texts. In fact, in the Byzantine tradition there has always been a heavy focus on what has come to be called, "realized eschatology," i.e., the idea that the end times have already been made manifest, and that they are being experienced here and now in the life and worship of the Church.[/quote]
I agree Sacred Scripture does have many levels. One could also say that each Christian has to pass through his own personal tribulation to relive the passion and death of Christ.

But truly there will be a sequence of events (over many many years) know as the Tribulation and culminating in the rise of Antichrist, the Crucifixion of the Church (on a global scale) and the Return of Christ as these events are described in Revelation and many other verses and books of the Bible.

Edited March 15, 2008 by kafka

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1477704' date='Mar 15 2008, 04:26 PM']I agree Sacred Scripture does have many levels. One could also say that each Christian has to pass through his own personal tribulation to relive the passion and death of Christ.

But truly there will be a sequence of events (over many many years) know as the Tribulation and culminating in the rise of Antichrist, the Crucifixion of the Church (on a global scale) and the Return of Christ.[/quote]
God is beyond time and eternity.

The Christian is already present with Christ in heaven, because where the head is, there also is the body. The Fathers do not see heaven simply as some future place or reality; instead, they see it as manifest here and now in the Church, which is the perpetual extension of the incarnation throughout space and time.

Bearing this in mind, it is true to say that the man who has been baptized into Christ has already risen with Him, for he already lives a life that is divine and not merely human, having been infused with God's own energy. Thus, the resurrection must be seen as both a present and future event; while – on the other hand – the Kingdom of God must be held to have been made manifest in power, and in such a way that it can be seen by any man, i.e., if he possesses the uncreated eyes of the Spirit which make it visible.

Edited March 15, 2008 by Apotheoun

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1477705' date='Mar 15 2008, 06:35 PM']God is beyond time and eternity. The Christian is already present with Christ in heaven, because where the head is, there also is the body. The Fathers do not see heaven simply as some future place or reality; instead, they see it as manifest here and now in the Church, which is the perpetual extension of the incarnation throughout space and time.

Bearing this in mind, it is true to say that those who have been baptized into Christ have already risen with Him, for they live a life already that is divine and not merely human, having been infused with God's own energy. Thus, the resurrection must be seen as both a present and future event; while – on the other hand – the Kingdom of God must be held to have been made manifest in power, and in such a way that it can be seen by any man, i.e., if he possesses the uncreated eyes of the Spirit which make it visible.[/quote]
I agree that those who are saved are already present with God in the First Heaven from the first moment of its creation since Heaven is Timeless and Placeless. This is a great mystery. Yet the General Resurrection when the Just and damned rise and are reunited with their new bodies is a future event and has not occured. Similarly the creation of the New (Second) Heaven has not occured and is a future event.

What you mentioned about the Fathers is that those who are baptised enter into the Mystical Body of Christ and have the unfulfilled potential of rising with Christ, yet they still must live out there lives. The Mystical Boday spans Heaven, Purgatory and Earth. Church Triumphant, Church Suffering, Church Militant.

[Guest perelandra]

I'd have to say that I agree with Apotheoun on his point of view of Time and Eternity. I don't know how much we agree, only because I've never dialogued with him before.
As far as the Church teaches, when we die and our body separates here in time and space, as we pass into eternity there is nothing that says we will spend an "amount" of time there bodiless, and then move into another "moment" of time where we will be reunited with our bodies. Time and space will not exist in the same way that we experience it here on earth.
That is not to say that eternity is a negation of time and space. It is a different experience of it; a different dimension. If time and space here produced a square, in heaven it may be experienced as a cube (just to paint a picture of what I mean).
The "bodiless" beatific vision may not even exist, because we may find that when we get there, that we have really had our true body the whole "time". Like a baby in the womb is really and truly in this world at this moment (which my wife does have a baby in her womb, and he or she is really here with us), they are just experiencing it in a limited way, whereas when they come out and come to their senses, they realize that they have really been in this world all along and were truly meant for it. "That's why I had legs, it didn't make sense before!" one might exclaim.
And possibly if there is a bodiless experience as we pass from this world to the next, it may be our purgatorial stay. Who can say for sure? There is no Bible passage that will reveal it for no eye hath seen nor heart conceived of its true state.
As far as the proof texts used (Isaiah, Peter, etc.), as Apotheoun has said, the Church throughout the ages has seen the Church as a "surety" or downpayment of Heaven here on earth. The New Jerusalem coming down adorned as a bride in the book of Revelation is most definitely the Church touching down on earth in the New Covenant, and yet, it is the Heavenly Jerusalem still in Heaven. And this is because the True Temple is the Body of Christ, the True House of the Holy Spirit. And yet both the True Body of Christ and the Holy Spirit are Truly here on earth Sacramentally in the Church, and at the same time seated at the right hand of the Father in Heaven. It is a mystery to me how they can be both, but they are. I would say it is the same with the New Heavens and the New Earth.
Finally, as far as the Apocalypse goes, we need to be careful what we hold to as the Church has few, but strong words to say about a lot of the modern conceptions of the Apocalypse of Christ (the Revelation).
Some of the best views of the the Book itself see it both as provisionally fulfilled in 70 AD (but seen as microcosm of what will happen at the end of time when both our bodily temples, and the current creation [as seen as a temple] will be destroyed and purged with fire), and another insight which sees the book of Revelation as a liturgical reflection.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1477711' date='Mar 15 2008, 04:49 PM']What you mentioned about the Fathers is that those who are baptised enter into the Mystical Body of Christ and have the unfulfilled potential of rising with Christ, yet they still must live out there lives. The Mystical Boday spans Heaven, Purgatory and Earth. Church Triumphant, Church Suffering, Church Militant.[/quote]
It is not an unfulfilled potential, because if a man remains steadfast it is fulfilled in him here and now, and not merely as some future thing. As St. John Chrysostom said: ". . . where the Head is, there is the body also. There is no interval to separate between the Head and the body; for were there a separation, then were it no longer a body, then were it no longer a head."

The vision of God is possible here and now, and not simply after physical death, or at the final judgment.

[Apotheoun]

Let me be clear about something, because I am not saying that the resurrection of the body is unimportant, since the gift of [i]theosis[/i], which transcends both body and soul, includes them both, for it is the whole man who is saved by Christ. Nevertheless, what must be avoided at all costs is any attempt to speak of the saints in heaven as if they experience temporal duration, for they have entered into the divine eternity and so they transcend time. Now clearly this is not something that we explain adequately in words, because human language is itself time bound, but we must be careful to avoid anything that makes it sound as if the saints are sitting around in heaven waiting to get their bodies back at the end of time.

Edited March 15, 2008 by Apotheoun

[kafka]

[quote name='perelandra' post='1477730' date='Mar 15 2008, 07:07 PM']The "bodiless" beatific vision may not even exist, because we may find that when we get there, that we have really had our true body the whole "time". Like a baby in the womb is really and truly in this world at this moment (which my wife does have a baby in her womb, and he or she is really here with us), they are just experiencing it in a limited way, whereas when they come out and come to their senses, they realize that they have really been in this world all along and were truly meant for it. "That's why I had legs, it didn't make sense before!" one might exclaim.
And possibly if there is a bodiless experience as we pass from this world to the next, it may be our purgatorial stay. Who can say for sure? There is no Bible passage that will reveal it for no eye hath seen nor heart conceived of its true state.[/quote]
that is definitely a possibility. The point I was making is that the First Heaven ends, the souls of the Just are given their new bodies, then a New Heaven is created and the Saints (now reunited with their bodies) are assumed into the New Heaven. Whether or not the Fist Heaven and New Heaven are in some way connected, I dont know, but I do agree that Heaven is Timeless and Placeless like you were explaining. It can also be said to be Timeful and Placeful. Once a soul enters Heaven, he has always been there from its Creation since it is Timeless. And from Heaven the Saints can see the Creation of the Universe and all events of history as they happen as if in present tense.

[kafka]

[quote name='perelandra' post='1477730' date='Mar 15 2008, 07:07 PM']Finally, as far as the Apocalypse goes, we need to be careful what we hold to as the Church has few, but strong words to say about a lot of the modern conceptions of the Apocalypse of Christ (the Revelation).
Some of the best views of the the Book itself see it both as provisionally fulfilled in 70 AD (but seen as microcosm of what will happen at the end of time when both our bodily temples, and the current creation [as seen as a temple] will be destroyed and purged with fire), and another insight which sees the book of Revelation as a liturgical reflection.[/quote]
I realize Protestants take far fetched liberties with Revelation and Daniel, etc, but most of what has been written about the Tribulation by Catholics is speculative. I strongly disagree with the Book of Revelation being provisionally fulfilled in 70 a.d., and I disagree with it referring to mere spiritual symbols or a liturgical reflection. I think it describes a sequence of actual events unfolding over perhaps four or so centuries that will occur in the future.

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1477734' date='Mar 15 2008, 07:15 PM']It is not an unfulfilled potential, because if a man remains steadfast it is fulfilled in him here and now, and not merely as some future thing. As St. John Chrysostom said: ". . . where the Head is, there is the body also. There is no interval to separate between the Head and the body; for were there a separation, then were it no longer a body, then were it no longer a head."

The vision of God is possible here and now, and not simply after physical death, or at the final judgment.[/quote]
what do you mean by the vision of God? I agree that a person may experience God in moment or moments of contemplation where it is like a Timeless and Placeless experience, but as far as I know the only human to possess the actual Light of Glory while on earth was Christ

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1477742' date='Mar 15 2008, 07:30 PM']Let me be clear about something, because I am not saying that the resurrection of the body is unimportant, since the gift of [i]theosis[/i], which transcends both body and soul, includes them both, for it is the whole man who is saved by Christ. Nevertheless, what must be avoided at all costs is any attempt to speak of the saints in heaven as if they experience temporal duration, for they have entered into the divine eternity and so they transcend time. Now clearly this is not something that we explain adequately in words, because human language is itself time bound, but we must be careful to avoid anything that makes it sound as if the saints are sitting around in heaven waiting to get their bodies back at the end of time.[/quote]
what does the East define theosis as? I am a Latin.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1477750' date='Mar 15 2008, 05:48 PM']what does the East define theosis as? I am a Latin. [/quote]
Theosis is the vision of God, the vision of the uncreated Light of Tabor, i.e., becoming God by participating in the uncreated energies of the Holy Trinity.

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1477776' date='Mar 15 2008, 08:17 PM']Theosis is the vision of God, the vision of the uncreated Light of Tabor, i.e., becoming God by participating in the uncreated energies of the Holy Trinity.[/quote]
So this is what we in the West call the Beautific Vision.

"becoming God?"

you mean becoming like God? Or like Christ said "gods" with a little g.