Norseman82 Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 A church has been desecrated. How does it get un-desecrated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PedroX Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 JasJis, I was indeed being sarcastic, and I apologize if I caused confusion, or scandal. I would like to discuss one point of your post, if you don't mind. The Sophia nonsense described in the original article did not take place as part of the liturgy of Divine Worship, it replaced the liturgy. In other words, it was not folded into something worthy, but completely took its place. This in my mind makes it very similar to what took place in Grand Rapids. In my opinion (not to be mistaken with magisterial authority!) worship of anything other than Almighty God is completely inappropriate in a Catholic Church building. I believe that we can have discussions about secular activity taking place (speeches, recitals, etc) but there is no room for discussion on "worship". I truly have a great deal of respect for your posts, JasJis, and welcome your insights into this matter. For me it is a matter of worship, plain and simple. For me it has nothing to do with Latin or VII or anything else. I just think that worshiping anything other than God Himself is idolatry. peace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Pedro, I took the monk thing as mostly entertainment, not as worship. I feel that Catholics could (and should) have contributed much more and clarified things to show the monk thing as art, seperate it from worship, and demonstrated how the beauty of the monk art is manifested as beauty in authentic Christian worship. I mean come on, consider the beauty of the great Classical composers who simply reflected the beauty of Worship in the art of music. The Sophia thing, totally smacks of a Worship Liturgy, and I percieved no aspect that was presented as "art" to seperate it from Worship. And I'm glad you were being sarcastic! I thought you were, but I wasn't sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PedroX Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 JasJis, and demonstrated how the beauty of the monk art is manifested as beauty in authentic Christian worship. I mean come on, consider the beauty of the great Classical composers who simply reflected the beauty of Worship in the art of music. We are getting closer to each other's position's every day! (isn't the unity of the Spirit a wonderful thing!) IF the monks had been monks simply singing a collection of Tibetan folk songs, I would have been mildly turned off, but I wouldn't have "flown off the handle" (my words, not yours!). However, the monks were chanting Buddhist prayers. The prayer part is what gets me all worked up. I fully believe that the Catholic Church needs to be a major force in culture (lets commission another Sistine Chapel or more major symphonic works, or even hip hop albums!) However, a prayer to anything other than the One True God has no place in a Catholic Church. Thanks for being willing to dialogue on this. peace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I think the Buddhists who don't believe in God (right?) demonstrating their chants and trying to raise money to save their leader far more acceptable than whatever the ____ was going on at the cathedral mentioned in this article. Are there any other articles on this from a different source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I think the Buddhists who don't believe in God (right?) demonstrating their chants and trying to raise money to save their leader far more acceptable than whatever the ____ was going on at the cathedral mentioned in this article. Are there any other articles on this from a different source? hehe, the buddhist monk thread refuses to die.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 yes, well I've tried my best to kill it off..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 IF the monks had been monks simply singing a collection of Tibetan folk songs, I would have been mildly turned off, but I wouldn't have "flown off the handle" (my words, not yours!). However, the monks were chanting Buddhist prayers. The prayer part is what gets me all worked up. I fully believe that the Catholic Church needs to be a major force in culture (lets commission another Sistine Chapel or more major symphonic works, or even hip hop albums!) However, a prayer to anything other than the One True God has no place in a Catholic Church. Pedro, EXACTLY! I didn't take the chants very much as prayer, but that's me, and I'm could very well be in the minority. Clearing up misconcpetion should have been what the SSPX people had done. Instead of praying the Rosary as a protest and to disrupt, couldnt' they have contributed to and influenced the program? Could they not have explained that the monk chant shouldn't be considered as anything more than 'art' by Catholics, and then provide wonderful examples of Chant as worth Worshipful Prayer which exists in the Fullness of the Truth that is Catholicism? Ba-da-da-Bing! Four birds with one stone. 1-Put the proper perspective on buhddist chant. 2-Kept Buhddist prayer beads from being sold. 3-Allow literature about China's tyranny against buhddists and Catholics. 4-Introduce the beauty of Gregorian Chant and chanted Prayers to Catholics who are open to it, but have never been exposed to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PedroX Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 JasJis, I didn't take the chants very much as prayer, As they say "Aye, thats the rub". How about I phrase the question this way "If the Buddhist chants were prayers, then they would be innapropriate to perform in the sanctuary of a Catholic Church" This to me has always been the defining point. Worship of anything other than The One True God has no place in a church dedicated to the worship of The One True God. We may say that the Buddhists worship "nothing", but "nothing" is still something other than God. We may say the Sophia-ists worship the Goddess, or Mary Magdelene or their belly buttons, but it is something other than God. This is what I find innapropriate. I think that we are in agreement on this central point. All of culture can be redeemed. Pagan worship can be used to point the way to the One True God, but it can not supplant it. Performance of pagan worship in our churches is a desecration. Please note, there is no criticism (implied or real) of the hierarchy in that statement. To me, the above is a statement of Ecclesial fact, and theological neccessity. I am not being belligerent, nor am I being schismatic. Any semblance, real or imagined is soley in the mind of the reader. Any attempt to portray the author of the above sentiments as being "more Catholic than the Pope" lies completely with the reader, and is not the author's intent or desire. Any name calling that may result from a reader's response to this post is simply mean. I feel like I need to issue such legal disclaimers due to recent threads and post. Thank you, please return to your regularly scheduled posting. peace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Considering these guys are monks their chants probably are prayers in some sense of the word. But the Stabat Mater is a prayer, but it can be chanted as a musical performance. I guess it depends on the context. Since they were there to share the beauty of their culture it is doubtful that they saw it as a religious ceremony. I wish there was an article on this from a different perspective. I find it hard to believe that the pastor would invite people to his parish to perform strange religious rites. But who knows, there is some pretty whack stuff going on out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Pedro, EXACTLY! I didn't take the chants very much as prayer, but that's me, and I'm could very well be in the minority. Clearing up misconcpetion should have been what the SSPX people had done. Instead of praying the Rosary as a protest and to disrupt, couldnt' they have contributed to and influenced the program? Could they not have explained that the monk chant shouldn't be considered as anything more than 'art' by Catholics, and then provide wonderful examples of Chant as worth Worshipful Prayer which exists in the Fullness of the Truth that is Catholicism? Ba-da-da-Bing! Four birds with one stone. 1-Put the proper perspective on buhddist chant. 2-Kept Buhddist prayer beads from being sold. 3-Allow literature about China's tyranny against buhddists and Catholics. 4-Introduce the beauty of Gregorian Chant and chanted Prayers to Catholics who are open to it, but have never been exposed to it. that's part of the article I didn't understand. Who was that priest that started the protest? It seems like the SSPXers were content to leave early on and had no intention of running out the monks. That priest was really the one who took things to the next level. Was he SSPX? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Worship of anything other than The One True God has no place in a church dedicated to the worship of The One True God. We may say that the Buddhists worship "nothing", but "nothing" is still something other than God. We may say the Sophia-ists worship the goddess or Mary Magdelene or their belly buttons, but it is something other than God. This is what I find inappropriate. PedroX has anyone told you lately that you are wonderful..... :wub: Performance of pagan worship in our churches is a desecration. And the parody of taking communion which the article suggests happened as part of this pagan 'service' is particularly offensive, as is the 'consecrating the bread fruit and wine' on the altar......it is making a mockery of the Blessed Sacrament. The idea that any religious belief or practice can be 'performed' or celebrated in a church is quite astounding. No one knows the spiritual maturity of people in the 'audience' - are they able to discern something which might point them in 'the general direction of God' from that which is Truth, and what kind of spiritual mess will they have to wade through as a result of being given the idea that 'all roads lead to God' and you can pick and choose which bits of any religion you like but will get there in the end? There are countless stories of people who have walked the road of spiritual confusion for years as a result of that kind of philosophy which has led to all sorts of sin..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Did anybody finds any other articles about this sophia thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Bah! I wish an SSPX congregation had come in and stopped this sacrelige as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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