Winchester Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 You know, there's never an answer for that one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_bc Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 davejc29201: I think we ought to stop calling supporting abortion being pro-choice. Let's start calling it for what it really is -- pro-abortion, pro-death, or pro-murder. ironmonk: I like to take it a step further... anti-Life. Yeah, this is really going to convince people and save lives. I imagine your debates will go something like this: - You people just have to understand that you're actually pro-genocide Nazies, not the compassionate people you thought you were. -Of course, I see it all so clearly now. Hold the line while I go and resign from my leadership position in Planned Parenthood, will you? But maybe I've just become a bitter old man at age 25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 9, 2003 Author Share Posted July 9, 2003 God Bless you _bc. You are wise beyond your years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 People usually take the easy way out. Legalized abortion is the easy option for desperate women, apathetic society, and irresponsible sperm depositors. People take the easy way and don't think of the damage it does to society, the devaluation of human dignity, and the babies dieing because it's easier to kill them then exercise self discipline and self sacrifice. Better to be embittered than apatheticlly murderous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempleofVesarius Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 the reason i think it is important to have LAWS against abortions is that fact that it really isnt just a Religious matter...it IS a civil and criminal matter, murders are committed. So saying QUOTE I just feel that there is a more productive way to support the journey towards valuing life. And that changing the law is a waste of time. I'd rather ACTUALLY stop a woman from having an abortion...then just having the prime minister tell her not to. doesnt seem like it would solve the problem in the big picture and MY country should uphold that in its laws...and its a sad thing she doesnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeSoul Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 I've hardly been reading these threads, but now that I have...I see a few things I said taken out of context. 1. QUOTE (FreeSoul @ Jul 3 2003, 05:07 PM) I can't legislate that someone should believe in God or act as though they do....there is only so much that the law can do...and that is why I don't believe in letting that the sole factor that dictates peoples actions.... "So, with this in mind, is it fair to assume that you believe that we shouldn't have laws against murder, rape, violence, etc? After all, there is only so much a law can do, right? Under what circumstances to you think that a law is valid?" By 'the law' I meant...the ONE law that is absent in decriminalizng abortion as opposed to law in general...yes finding alternate laws which support choosing life are effective. But in Canada the fact is you have to change the constitution before any new abortion laws can be made. I believe a law is valid when it becomes effective. What I am saying is that practically speaking, it would take less time talking to women on an individual basis, and fostering services which cater to women (like CPC's and services for fathers...and low-income families, etc) in crisis, than spending time changing that one law...and then still having to go back to face the internal crisis in an individual who may face resentment towards that law after all the time it took for us to have it created, and STILL requires those services of support. "Better to be embittered than apatheticlly murderous." I certainly hope you were not talking about me (ahem, ahem). I am NEITHER embittered or apathetic....I am full of hope and love...and I feel that much more powerful than the law. When I change hearts and families...and do the work that MUST be done on a financial, emotional and spiritual level in order to change the opinion on abortion in this society, the law will naturally follow suit. So therefore, I don't take the easy way...I take the way which requires work that gets me involved with women who make these choices on every level...and I don't let the law do the work for me...when I could do it better, not leaving until it's done. "another law i think in texas passed that would soon required the mother/father to wait 24 hours before having a abortion done so they can know what really happens during a abortion and maybe change their minds.... " Although I agree that women should think more before considering abortion, I have to ask the question as to what would happen to liberty laws...and speech laws...does that mean someone who supports abortion should also have 24 hours to sway my opinion? There has to be another way to inform women on the issue. and bc, you're right....I think people really do want to do the right thing...I don't pity them (that would be condescending), but I do have to ask myself...what are people's intentions who support abortion...I doubt anyone really wants or desires to end life...and calling someone a murderuous nazi, just gets them angry and closes their ears...not at all effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 10, 2003 Author Share Posted July 10, 2003 99.9999% of people who have abortions are selfish. All they care about is how their life is going to be affected. As for laws and "legislating" that someone act according to God's teachings - If to do what is right is "legislating" people to have laws that fit God's teachings, then so be it. I obey the Lord. Sirach 4:28 Even to death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you. Proverbs 31:8 Open thy mouth for the dumb, and for the causes of all the children that pass. 9 Open thy mouth, decree that which is just, and do justice to the needy and poor. By your reasoning, we cannot have laws against murder, stealing, etc... That is why the moral fiber of countries falls apart, no matter where the line is drawn, people will cross it.... YOU CAN'T KEEP DRAWING A NEW LINE AND EXPECT A HEALTY SOCIETY. It is the law of human nature. Yes, we can legislate people to have laws that fit God's plan even if they do not believe. For the safety and security of society we can justifiably do this. To say we can't is to show disbelief in God, or a major lack of understanding. God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 FreeSoul, No, I definetely wasn't calling you embittered or apathetically murderous. I meant it in the context where you seemed to say you could not support a law that embitterd people, you preferred to have positive means of ending abortion. I agree with you about preferring postive means, but practicality also dictates the need for abortion laws, even if it embitters some people. I do not think laws by themselves would be very effective, and I think you would agree with me there. I think it takes both laws, and positive options and positive changes in society to end abortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeSoul Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 99.9999% of people who have abortions are selfish. All they care about is how their life is going to be affected. How do you know that? By your reasoning, we cannot have laws against murder, stealing, etc... Why not? I am not saying that abortion should never be illegal..I am saying that the time and effort it would take to change that law would be better spent doing the things that need to be done regardless of whether we succeded in changing it. And if we did spend the time doing those very necessary things...imo people we would not run into problems with the law anyhoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_bc Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 (edited) Yes, we can legislate people to have laws that fit God's plan even if they do not believe. For the safety and security of society we can justifiably do this. To say we can't is to show disbelief in God, or a major lack of understanding. Dear Ironmonk, There is a clear, fundamental difference between a) God's Will B) Your own judgement as regards how best to advocate a) This thread, and the other abortion thread, has become an argument in which other people question B), and you respond by restating your understanding of a), while not participating in any discussion of B). Everybody who has posted in this thread agrees that abortion is a sin. Nobody is saying abortion should be legal or that it should be legalized if it were a illegal. The fact is: abortion is legal and decades of arguing that it's murder and should be banned outright have not had any effect. When the tactic isn't producing results, maybe it's time to change tactics? It is not a sin to fail to imprison women for having abortions. Abortion itself can be a sin. Making abortion illegal is a means to an end, not an end in itself. It is not the only means to that end. Campaigning to have it made illegal is also a means to an end, but as history shows it is a very bad means because it has been tried for decades and not had any effect and possibly not averted as many abortions as a more positive approach would have had. So the point is: you need to argue B) since a) is not being questioned. Edited July 14, 2003 by _bc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theistgal Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 99.9999% of people who have abortions are selfish. All they care about is how their life is going to be affected. I don't know about the percentage, but I would venture to guess that a sizable number of the people (99.9999% of whom are probably women, by the way ) who have abortions just don't know any better. Never underestimate the power of the media and the popular culture -- they've done everything they possibly can to convince young women over the past few decades that abortion is not just a choice, but an OBLIGATION under certain circumstances. It's not easy to overcome that kind of programming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Abortion itself can be a sin CAN be a sin? It is a sin which calls out to God for Justice. Itis amongst the most horrendous of sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_bc Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 CAN be a sin? It is a sin which calls out to God for Justice. Itis amongst the most horrendous of sins. I wrote 'can' because I'd been thinking about Winchesters debunk of the month, about how a sin is not a sin unless you are knowingly sinning. I was thinking about the Chinese who are forced to have abortions by their government, many of whom probably never met a Catholic evangelist in their life. I don't think it's important to the context. Americans and Europeans know it's a sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 a note to anti-lifers Anyone who can seperate his "beliefs" in God, and civil law, if the law contradicts what God teaches.... DOES NOT BELIEVE IN God AT ALL. - they are ONLY "social believers". Facts are facts... if someone really believed in God, God would come first. End of story. God Bless, Love in Chirst & Mary ironmonk if you are unwilling to sacrifice in order to respect your beliefs and convictions you are unworthy of them PROPS for IronMonk!!! CAN be a sin? It is a sin which calls out to God for Justice. Itis amongst the most horrendous of sins. Very true. God have mercy on us all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Yeah, this is really going to convince people and save lives. I imagine your debates will go something like this: But maybe I've just become a bitter old man at age 25. This made me laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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