Who Is Likely To Receive More Graces.....

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='picchick' post='1476344' date='Mar 12 2008, 04:24 PM']I think that everyone here can agree that we are still walking and growing in our faith. I hope that you will consider going to confession and recieving Jesus. Giving myself to Him during communion is refreshing, calming, and resting (if that is a word). It is great that you go to Eucharistic Adoration! Please let me know if you need anything. You can always PM me.
Meg[/quote]

I am definetly going to go to confession and bare my soul. Yes, I go to eucharistic adoration often, more often than mass. Thank you Meg for your prayers.... I feel that all of you are my graces!

[Socrates]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1476286' date='Mar 12 2008, 01:40 PM']I do know that when I enter the church and go to eucharistic adoration, the feelings are very intense and as I said before I am in tears and I do have to hold back, when I am kneeling without anything to hold me up, my knees start to buckle and I feel as if I am going to topple over.
I do feel feel invigorated and exhausted at the same time.
I agree
I agree.
Obviously it has been bothering me because I know that it is a mortal sin to miss mass without a good excuse, but I know that I am not an evil person and I do feel the love of Christ and want to share it with others. I admire the folks here at Phatmass and your walk of faith and I felt comfortable to bare my situation here.

Thank you all for your responses, they have helped me greatly.[/quote]
Not much to say which hasn't already been said, but we can commit all kinds of mortal sins without being an "evil person" who hates Christ. Most mortal sins are committed more out of weakness than hate (think any number of sexual sins). Sin still cuts us off from God's grace.

Remember that grace is an undeserved gift from God, not a reward for our personal virtue. You cannot get out of your obligations just by "feeling the love of Christ." If you love Christ, you will try to keep His commandments.
You should be repenting, not trying to justify your sin of omission by comparing yourself against the perceived failings of others. That is spiritually a very dangerous attitude to take.

[Kitty]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1474924' date='Mar 10 2008, 11:18 AM']A person who goes to mass every Sunday and rarely misses because it is a mortal sin to miss mass without a good excuse, they are generally a good person, but are more lukewarm in their walk with Jesus.[/quote]

This is exactly me. The only reason I really go to church is because it's a mortal sin not to. I'm trying to get closer to God as the relationship between me and him has been extremely cold for 3 years, but I'm not really feeling any closer. I sure hope I'm not getting less graces than the other guy, because that's even less motivation for me to continue being a Catholic. If I and people like me got less graces, then that only solidifies my feelings that God doesn't care about me.

[Deb]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1476601' date='Mar 13 2008, 12:26 AM']This is exactly me. The only reason I really go to church is because it's a mortal sin not to. I'm trying to get closer to God as the relationship between me and him has been extremely cold for 3 years, but I'm not really feeling any closer. I sure hope I'm not getting less graces than the other guy, because that's even less motivation for me to continue being a Catholic. If I and people like me got less graces, then that only solidifies my feelings that God doesn't care about me.[/quote]

Oh Kitty, God loves you more than you could ever imagine. He loves each one of us in a manner and to a degree that we are not capable of understanding. He wants you to ask him for his grace. Praise him, pray always, worship him and then ask of him to grant you what you need. Those who believe without seeing will always be rewarded more than those who see and believe.

[prose]

I have gained so much insight from reading the letters of Mother Teresa...

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1476601' date='Mar 13 2008, 01:26 AM']This is exactly me. The only reason I really go to church is because it's a mortal sin not to. I'm trying to get closer to God as the relationship between me and him has been extremely cold for 3 years, but I'm not really feeling any closer. I sure hope I'm not getting less graces than the other guy, because that's even less motivation for me to continue being a Catholic. If I and people like me got less graces, then that only solidifies my feelings that God doesn't care about me.[/quote]

Is this what Catholicism is about? Doing stuff to get graces? If it were, I'd have never become Catholic and I'd encourage you to leave too.

It took me a while to figure this out, but most Catholics are stuck in this works-oriented path of salvation where their entire relationship with God is focused on getting to Mass, going to Confession, doing good works... just checking off their "to-do list". That isn't Church teaching!

The Baltimore Catechism (which I believe to be the culprit for this widespread attitude) makes it sound so simple: do this, get that. Objectively speaking, it's right. It is a catechism, after all, but I find it to be a highly impractical one and frankly wouldn't recommend anyone to read it for the purpose of drawing closer to Christ. See, as we all know, real life and relationships are not objective. You only "get that" when you "do this" with the right intention, and the right intention comes from a passionate, loving relationship with God and being fully alive in Christ.

Yes, a passionate relationship... we should love God so much, it makes us blush.

When you share a strong relationshp with a relative or friend, you spend time with them because you care about and love them, not because you have to or because you read in a book somewhere that "doing this" will "win you" some points. That's manipulation, which is exactly what Satan has done to a lot of us to make our experience of faith as Catholics so darn miserable that we can hardly stand it.

And when it comes to grace, shouldn't we rejoice over receiving even the tiniest, ittiest little bit of grace? If you were dying of thirst in a desert, would you turn down even a sip of water? That's what receiving grace is like, except that the Spirit grants us a spring of living water so that we should never thirst again! This isn't something to get jealous over or worry about. If we had any idea how dead we were outside of Christ, we would not only rejoice over receiving grace, but rejoice even more for everyone else fortunate enough to receive grace. Whether they get "more" or "less" isn't the point. Shouldn't the true Christian desire everyone else in the world to receive more grace than themselves?

Fortunately for you, Kitty, there is no answer to the original question. Nobody can say whether one person is receiving more or less than the other because the only relevant detail is what God sees in the heart. Now, those who love God will show that love through actions (going to Mass, good works, etc), but it's quite easy to find ourselves going through the motions without loving God.

In fact, most of us are a mix of the true Christian and the ultimate hypocrite, but if we simply recognize the hypocrite and desire Christ, He'll draw us closer [i]by His grace[/i].


I'm curious, are the homilies any good at your parish? Are you learning anything? It's difficult to find that, and sometimes I think the more parishes you have to choose from, the more difficult it is.

Edited March 14, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1477317' date='Mar 14 2008, 12:35 PM'](snip)
It took me a while to figure this out, but most Catholics are stuck in this works-oriented path of salvation where their entire relationship with God is focused on getting to Mass, going to Confession, doing good works... just checking off their "to-do list". That isn't Church teaching![/quote]

Certainly your caricatured version is not Church teaching! Haven't you heard that Faith without works is dead, and that if a man hath faith to move mountains but not love, he is nothing? The Church does not share Protestantism negative view of humanity, where we are so corrupted by the fall that we are utterly incapable of doing good. As some Reformer notoriously taught, our good deeds are like sin before God! Nor does the Church teach that one can work their way into Heaven, or by their own deeds merit that justifying grace. Grace has been defined as a gratuitous gift from God, and it is the source of our good deeds, which if done in a state of sanctifying grace *can merit* for us more grace and/or greater glory in heaven. This is Church teaching and it's evident in the bible, countless verses of men being judged according to their deeds, works, or how well they lived according to the will of the the Father.

What troubles me is that you view the Sacraments as falling under "works oriented salvation" and that focus on them to get closer to God is some how negative. As if someone can get closer to Jesus outside of the Mass! The reality is the sacraments are *necessary* for salvation. Why? Because Christ instituted them to be our means of salvation. Jesus intended we be aided in our spiritual journey not just through interior grace, but externally through the Church, doctrine, and of course the Sacraments. Sacraments truly confer grace on a human being, they aren't mere symbols. With this in mind, I don't see how anyone can down play the sacraments.

[quote]The Baltimore Catechism (which I believe to be the culprit for this widespread attitude) makes it sound so simple: do this, get that. Objectively speaking, it's right. It is a catechism, after all, but I find it to be a highly impractical one and frankly wouldn't recommend anyone to read it for the purpose of drawing closer to Christ. See, as we all know, real life and relationships are not objective. You only "get that" when you "do this" with the right intention, and the right intention comes from a passionate, loving relationship with God and being fully alive in Christ.[/quote]

Faith in the mercy of God through Christ's merits is necessary and beautiful but it's *not* sufficient. A person *must* also believe in Divinely Revealed truths to achieve salvation:
[color="#0000FF"]"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."[/color]
Mark 16:16

Since knowing the truth is vital, how can it not bring you closer to Christ? St John under the guidance of the Spirit wrote we must worship in Spirit and Truth, not spirit alone.

You may criticize the Baltimore Catechism all you want but it did its job well. People knew the faith, and even today men in their 70's can recite passages from it. Although it is a bit dry the greatest advantage is it's clarity. Compared to the new catechism, it is utterly absent of ambiguity.


God bless

[Deb]

The Catechism teaches:

[b]790 [/b]Believers who respond to God's word and become members of Christ's Body, become intimately united with him: "In that body the life of Christ is communicated to those who believe, and who, [b]through the sacraments[/b], are united in a hidden and real way to Christ in his Passion and glorification." This is especially true of Baptism, which unites us to Christ's death and Resurrection, [b]and the Eucharist, by which "really sharing in the body of the Lord, . . . we are taken up into communion with him and with one another."

[/b]Catholic teaching leads us all to the one goal we should have...to be like Jesus Christ. The sacraments, the mass, the Holy Spirit, God's graces. They all work on us to transform us to be like Christ. That is why I find it important to take part in the sacraments as often as I can. I can't act like Christ or be like Christ on my own. I can't love my neighbor and do good things without him in me.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1477587' date='Mar 15 2008, 01:02 PM']Certainly your caricatured version is not Church teaching! Haven't you heard that Faith without works is dead, and that if a man hath faith to move mountains but not love, he is nothing? The Church does not share Protestantism negative view of humanity, where we are so corrupted by the fall that we are utterly incapable of doing good. As some Reformer notoriously taught, our good deeds are like sin before God! Nor does the Church teach that one can work their way into Heaven, or by their own deeds merit that justifying grace. Grace has been defined as a gratuitous gift from God, and it is the source of our good deeds, which if done in a state of sanctifying grace *can merit* for us more grace and/or greater glory in heaven. This is Church teaching and it's evident in the bible, countless verses of men being judged according to their deeds, works, or how well they lived according to the will of the the Father.[/quote]

The Church teaches that one cannot work their way to Heaven. That's exactly what I'm getting at. Questions focused on how to receive more graces reflect a twisted understanding of grace as a free gift from God. As the original poster said, they feel if the person who attends Mass every Sunday but doesn't feel the "fire" of Christ's love is receiving less grace, that would only affirm their feeling that God doesn't love them. Obviously, when people are arriving at such unfortunate conclusions, somewhere along the way their understanding of grace isn't right.

[quote name='mortify' post='1477587' date='Mar 15 2008, 01:02 PM']What troubles me is that you view the Sacraments as falling under "works oriented salvation" and that focus on them to get closer to God is some how negative.[/quote]

I know they aren't, but a lot of Catholics are effectively practicing a works-oriented faith. They're more concerned with whether or not their kids go to Mass than if they understand anything about what happens there or if their hearts are converted. Everyone who receives the Eucharist receives grace, but if your heart is stone, that grace will be like the seed that fell on rocky soil.

[quote name='mortify' post='1477587' date='Mar 15 2008, 01:02 PM']You may criticize the Baltimore Catechism all you want but it did its job well. People knew the faith, and even today men in their 70's can recite passages from it. Although it is a bit dry the greatest advantage is it's clarity. Compared to the new catechism, it is utterly absent of ambiguity.[/quote]

This is all in the past, but the widespread dispersion of Catholics from Church teaching, or from the Church alltogether, lends me to believe that knowledge of the faith before Vatican II was insufficient to prepare laypeople to defend their faith against challenges. Memorizing passages from a catechism is fine as long as you're inside a Catholic bubble, but what do you do soon as someone questions your belief? How many Catholics then could support the Catechism with Scripture or knowledge of Tradition, or bothered to read Scripture for their spiritual well being?

["Kyrie eleison"]

I have attended mass the last two weeks and I feel much better and closer to Jesus. I still have not gone to confession and I longed to receive communion this Easter, none the less I felt so close to my saviour. I am working at getting to confession and giving a good one. Pray for me and again thank you for all your replies, they have helped me greatly in my walk.