Who Is Likely To Receive More Graces.....

[picchick]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1475796' date='Mar 11 2008, 04:05 PM']Because I think this whole thread is pretty pointless, I'm gonna say they're both going to Hell.

I mean, seriously, don't we have anything better to talk about?[/quote]

Do we? If we do, then why did you respond?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1475880' date='Mar 11 2008, 09:05 PM']Q. 280. What is mortal sin?

A. Mortal sin is a grievous offense against the law of God.

Q. 281. Why is this sin called mortal?

A. This sin is called mortal because it deprives us of spiritual life, which is sanctifying grace, and brings everlasting death and damnation on the soul.

[url="http://www.heartlandcatholic.org/BC3/bc3-06.html"]http://www.heartlandcatholic.org/BC3/bc3-06.html[/url][/quote]

However...

[quote]Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.[/quote]

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1859.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1859.htm[/url]

In my initial (and unanswered) response to this question, I asked about the circumstances causing the second guy to skip Mass. Without knowing at least that much, we have no business speculating on this question. Our newer Catechism spells things out much better than the Baltimore, which I've never liked much because it leads too many Catholics into scrupulosity and practicing works-based salvation (i.e. doing things out of obligation rather than love for God). The newer Catechism is basically spelling out how God judges by searching our hearts, and since we have no clue about either person's heart, we don't know which one is receiving more graces.

Edited March 12, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='picchick' post='1475892' date='Mar 11 2008, 09:34 PM']Do we? If we do, then why did you respond? [/quote]

Because there is so much more to Catholicism to speculating on who's getting some graces, as if we can even measure that kind of thing.

[picchick]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1475993' date='Mar 11 2008, 11:27 PM']Because there is so much more to Catholicism to speculating on who's getting some graces, as if we can even measure that kind of thing.[/quote]

Right...so don't judge. I mean not you but the world in general. It is between that person and God, Who can read that person's heart. I guess I am a handful for myself. I can't worry about where anyone else's heart is.

Meg

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]In my initial (and unanswered) response to this question, I asked about the circumstances causing the second guy to skip Mass. Without knowing at least that much, we have no business speculating on this question.[/quote]

Let's say that the second guy misses mass because of laziness.




[quote]Our newer Catechism spells things out much better than the Baltimore, which I've never liked much because it leads too many Catholics into scrupulosity and practicing works-based salvation (i.e. doing things out of obligation rather than love for God). The newer Catechism is basically spelling out how God judges by searching our hearts, and since we have no clue about either person's heart, we don't know which one is receiving more graces.[/quote]

Well, let's throw this scripture verse in the mix.


<< 1 Peter 4:8 >>

Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love [b]covers[/b] a multitude of sins.

Edited March 12, 2008 by "Kyrie eleison"

[picchick]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1476018' date='Mar 11 2008, 11:59 PM']Let's say that the second guy misses mass because of laziness.
Well, let's throw this scripture verse in the mix.
<< 1 Peter 4:8 >>

Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love [b]covers[/b] a multitude of sins.[/quote]

I have a question for you. Why are you worried about this? Are you just curious?

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='picchick' post='1476030' date='Mar 12 2008, 12:27 AM']I have a question for you. Why are you worried about this? Are you just curious?[/quote]

I am the second person that I speak of in my post. I do love Jesus and I do feel the fire of his love. When I do make to mass I cry because I feel his presence so intensely. I cry when I sing during mass, I constantly have to wipe my tears away.

I don't go to confession often so I don't receive communion when I do go to mass.

I volunteer at the church not out of oblagation but because I want to.

I miss church often because I work on Sunday but it is not an excuse because I can go on Saturday or early Sunday morning.

[picchick]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1476035' date='Mar 12 2008, 12:47 AM']I am the second person that I speak of in my post. I do love Jesus and I do feel the fire of his love. When I do make to mass I cry because I feel his presence so intensely. I cry when I sing during mass, I constantly have to wipe my tears away.

I don't go to confession often so I don't receive communion when I do go to mass.

I volunteer at the church not out of oblagation but because I want to.

I miss church often because I work on Sunday but it is not an excuse because I can go on Saturday or early Sunday morning.[/quote]

I see now. Ok.

May I ask what keeps you from going to confession? Is it that you can't get there or is it because you don't see the need?

Well, after this thread you know that it is a sin to miss Mass. But if you love the presence of Jesus in the Mass then will want to go to it often or at least every week. I know that it is hard sometimes to get to Mass on a Sunday. I have to sometimes search the local towns for a Church with a very late or very early Mass because of the work schedule I have. However, there always seems to be a Mass somewhere. So now that you know it is a sin to miss Mass I would run to confess it. I am not saying this out of judgement. Just out of guidance. And if you feel Jesus's presence in Mass don't you want to recieve him into your very soul? By going to confession you can recieve Him. Let me know if there is anything I can do. I will be praying for you

Meg

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='picchick' post='1476042' date='Mar 12 2008, 01:10 AM']I see now. Ok.

May I ask what keeps you from going to confession? Is it that you can't get there or is it because you don't see the need?

Well, after this thread you know that it is a sin to miss Mass. But if you love the presence of Jesus in the Mass then will want to go to it often or at least every week. I know that it is hard sometimes to get to Mass on a Sunday. I have to sometimes search the local towns for a Church with a very late or very early Mass because of the work schedule I have. However, there always seems to be a Mass somewhere. So now that you know it is a sin to miss Mass I would run to confess it. I am not saying this out of judgement. Just out of guidance. And if you feel Jesus's presence in Mass don't you want to recieve him into your very soul? By going to confession you can recieve Him. Let me know if there is anything I can do. I will be praying for you

Meg[/quote]

Thanks Meg. Thank you so much for your prayers and your heartfelt responses here on this thread.

[KnightofChrist]

What is in someone's heart does not need to effect the grace given when one goes to mass, or graces not given when one does not go to mass. Knowledge of the sin of missing mass does not need to effect the grace given when one goes to mass, or graces not given when one does not go to mass.

When we go to mass we obtain a certain grace, if we do not go to mass we do not obtain that grace. Simply because we do not go to mass, the only place in which that grace can be obtain.

When we receive the Blessed Sacrament at mass, we also obtain a certain grace, when we do not receive the Blessed Sacrament we do not obtain that grace. Again simply because we do not receive the Blessed Sacrament, the only action which that grace can be obtain.

When we do not receive these graces it can leave us open to harm from the devil, and/or weaker against temptation, among other harmful things.

To be clear it is a fact which can not factually be denied, going to mass, and receiving the Blessed Sacrament we obtain graces we do not obtain when we do not go to mass and when we do not receive the Blessed Sacrament.

Edited March 12, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1476035' date='Mar 12 2008, 01:47 AM']I am the second person that I speak of in my post. I do love Jesus and I do feel the fire of his love. When I do make to mass I cry because I feel his presence so intensely. I cry when I sing during mass, I constantly have to wipe my tears away.

I don't go to confession often so I don't receive communion when I do go to mass.

I volunteer at the church not out of oblagation but because I want to.

I miss church often because I work on Sunday but it is not an excuse because I can go on Saturday or early Sunday morning.[/quote]

Is it possible a part of you fears going to Mass and receiving the sacraments because your relationship with God is so emotionally intense?

I have to think those experiences are at least mentally exhausting, if not physically, and your avoidance of Mass and Confession may simply be a psychological defense mechanism protecting you from an overdose of emotions. There could be other things going on to... you probably feel the Holy Spirit's conviction during those times, and naturally we all resist that out of pride. Some people maybe manage to attend Mass, but sit in the back where they can both physically and mentally distance themselves from God while fulfilling the Sunday obligation. Maybe you aren't willing to settle for that compromise, so you end up at one extreme or the other: you are there completely or you are not there at all.

You've probably heard that love isn't a feeling, but a choice. There are times when a husband and wife must choose to love each other and remain together because they feel like pushing each other away. We gotta do the same thing with Christ sometimes, which means choosing with the force of our will to do what we know is right regardless of our feelings about it (this is why fasting is so powerful, because it helps us exercise the force of our will against our emotional, animal desires). If you're attending Mass every week (or even more), you'll probably find those intense emotional experiences subside, and maybe a part of you doesn't want to let go of that fire in your heart. But a strong relationship with Christ is more like burning embers that remain hot through the night and can quickly rise again to a roaring flame when we need them.

Have you talked to a priest or close Catholic friends about this stuff? Advice and catechesis are good, but what we all really need is people we can bare our souls to face-to-face, who can help keep us accountable for our spritual growth. This is why I'm not such a big fan of the Baltimore Catechism. Everything in it is objectively true, of course, but it's impractical for handling real life situations like yours. For example, when you go to Confession, are you baring your soul before the Lord, or do you just list off your sins and go along with your life, treating it as a box to be checked? If I were you, I think the first thing I would do is decide right now to receive this sacrament as soon as possible, but to approach it like it's the first and last time you'll ever receive it.

Edited March 12, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[mortify]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1476035' date='Mar 11 2008, 11:47 PM']I am the second person that I speak of in my post. I do love Jesus and I do feel the fire of his love. When I do make to mass I cry because I feel his presence so intensely. I cry when I sing during mass, I constantly have to wipe my tears away.

I don't go to confession often so I don't receive communion when I do go to mass.

I volunteer at the church not out of oblagation but because I want to.

I miss church often because I work on Sunday but it is not an excuse because I can go on Saturday or early Sunday morning.[/quote]

Kyrie, you suggested earlier that you miss Mass because of laziness, this is not a valid excuse and I'm sorry for being so blunt but you are in a state of mortal sin and need to go to Confession. Your acts of charity merit nothing in the face of God so long as you remain in this state. You also said some things which incline me to think you are reading up on Protestant literature. Protestants incorrectly think that grace covers us like a blanket, without transforming our inner self which the Bible says occurs, and so they believe one can live in a state of sin and still make it to heaven. Jesus was clear however, that loving Him means following His commandments, and if a person *intentionally* decides not to participate in the greatest and most profound chance for a human being to commune with Christ, the Mass, then what can we say? Is it love if the Lord waits for you and you do not go?

Perhaps you need to read up on what the Mass is. The Mass is Calvary made present, that same sacrifice two thousand years ago is brought before us, and we, along with the Apostles and Saints kneel and worship before the Lord. Christ becomes present in flesh, soul, and divinity in the Eucharist. A person who consumes the Eucharist consumes Him, and He clings to our innermost being! Why deny yourself Jesus Christ?

The others are right though, you shouldn't go out of fear of mortal sin, better if you realize what Jesus is offering you at mass, and you go there out of love for Him. But please, do go to confession so you too may commune with the Lord at His alter.

[Deb]

Yes, definitely go to confession and then see if you can get back on track with going to church every Sunday. Don't let it hold you back if you cry at mass. I cry all the time at mass. I never know when it is going to happen. At first, it was out of feeling unworthy and also healing and now it is mostly out of joy and gratitude for being a part of such a beautiful thing.
Crying is healing and mass can be very emotional because God is so close to us there.
Prayers coming at ya!

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1476146' date='Mar 12 2008, 11:03 AM']Is it possible a part of you fears going to Mass and receiving the sacraments because your relationship with God is so emotionally intense?[/quote]

I do know that when I enter the church and go to eucharistic adoration, the feelings are very intense and as I said before I am in tears and I do have to hold back, when I am kneeling without anything to hold me up, my knees start to buckle and I feel as if I am going to topple over.

[quote]I have to think those experiences are at least mentally exhausting, if not physically, and your avoidance of Mass and Confession may simply be a psychological defense mechanism protecting you from an overdose of emotions.[/quote]

I do feel feel invigorated and exhausted at the same time.



[quote]There could be other things going on to... you probably feel the Holy Spirit's conviction during those times, and naturally we all resist that out of pride. Some people maybe manage to attend Mass, but sit in the back where they can both physically and mentally distance themselves from God while fulfilling the Sunday obligation. Maybe you aren't willing to settle for that compromise, so you end up at one extreme or the other: you are there completely or you are not there at all.[/quote]

I agree

[quote]You've probably heard that love isn't a feeling, but a choice. There are times when a husband and wife must choose to love each other and remain together because they feel like pushing each other away. We gotta do the same thing with Christ sometimes, which means choosing with the force of our will to do what we know is right regardless of our feelings about it (this is why fasting is so powerful, because it helps us exercise the force of our will against our emotional, animal desires). If you're attending Mass every week (or even more), you'll probably find those intense emotional experiences subside, and maybe a part of you doesn't want to let go of that fire in your heart. But a strong relationship with Christ is more like burning embers that remain hot through the night and can quickly rise again to a roaring flame when we need them.[/quote]

I agree.

[quote]Have you talked to a priest or close Catholic friends about this stuff? Advice and catechesis are good, but what we all really need is people we can bare our souls to face-to-face, who can help keep us accountable for our spritual growth. This is why I'm not such a big fan of the Baltimore Catechism. Everything in it is objectively true, of course, but it's impractical for handling real life situations like yours. For example, when you go to Confession, are you baring your soul before the Lord, or do you just list off your sins and go along with your life, treating it as a box to be checked? If I were you, I think the first thing I would do is decide right now to receive this sacrament as soon as possible, but to approach it like it's the first and last time you'll ever receive it.[/quote]

Obviously it has been bothering me because I know that it is a mortal sin to miss mass without a good excuse, but I know that I am not an evil person and I do feel the love of Christ and want to share it with others. I admire the folks here at Phatmass and your walk of faith and I felt comfortable to bare my situation here.

Thank you all for your responses, they have helped me greatly.

[picchick]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1476286' date='Mar 12 2008, 02:40 PM']Obviously it has been bothering me because I know that it is a mortal sin to miss mass without a good excuse, but I know that I am not an evil person and I do feel the love of Christ and want to share it with others. I admire the folks here at Phatmass and your walk of faith and I felt comfortable to bare my situation here.

Thank you all for your responses, they have helped me greatly.[/quote]

I think that everyone here can agree that we are still walking and growing in our faith. I hope that you will consider going to confession and recieving Jesus. Giving myself to Him during communion is refreshing, calming, and resting (if that is a word). It is great that you go to Eucharistic Adoration! Please let me know if you need anything. You can always PM me.
Meg