Who Is Likely To Receive More Graces.....

[mortify]

[quote name='picchick' post='1475097' date='Mar 10 2008, 04:40 PM']We do not really know what is in the heart. Only God does.[/quote]

We don't know hearts but we know certain actions are mortal sins if done knowingly and willingly. If a person dies in a state of mortal sin without repenting they go to hell.

It's a hard teaching but its true, Kyrie Elieson.

[Socrates]

The Church teaches that it is a mortal sin to miss Sunday mass without a grave reason for doing so.
If these people are Catholics, and really have such a love for Jesus, they would not commit mortal sin every week by deliberately missing mass.

As Christ said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)
Attending Sunday Mass is a commandment of Christ though His Church.

On the other hand, if one attends mass regulary and commits other acts of outward piety, but lacks true charity in his heart, he too can risk his salvation through his hard-hearted hypocrisy.
We should remember, though, that it is not our place to judge individual souls.

[picchick]

[quote name='mortify' post='1475353' date='Mar 10 2008, 10:11 PM']We don't know hearts but we know certain actions are mortal sins if done knowingly and willingly. If a person dies in a state of mortal sin without repenting they go to hell.

It's a hard teaching but its true, Kyrie Elieson.[/quote]

I understand what you are saying but I still will have to disagree with you. We first off do not know why the person is missing Mass. We don't know if they even were taught that missing Mass was a sin. Maybe this was not reinforced for them.

I agree that if you die in the state of mortal sin then you will go to hell. But how can one person say to another, "You are in a state of mortal sin."? Isn't it better to say, "Hey, man, do you know that it is a mortal sin to miss Mass? You need to go every Sunday." Then if her were to reply, "Why, yes, I know that I should go every Sunday but I do not feel it is necessary," we could say that she is committing a mortal sin knowingly. Plus, how do we know if a person dies without repenting? We don't. We do not know what is going on in the heart, mind and soul of the dying person unless they vocally say something.

[Socrates]

[quote name='picchick' post='1475423' date='Mar 10 2008, 09:56 PM']I understand what you are saying but I still will have to disagree with you. We first off do not know why the person is missing Mass. We don't know if they even were taught that missing Mass was a sin. Maybe this was not reinforced for them.

I agree that if you die in the state of mortal sin then you will go to hell. But how can one person say to another, "You are in a state of mortal sin."? Isn't it better to say, "Hey, man, do you know that it is a mortal sin to miss Mass? You need to go every Sunday." Then if her were to reply, "Why, yes, I know that I should go every Sunday but I do not feel it is necessary," we could say that she is committing a mortal sin knowingly. Plus, how do we know if a person dies without repenting? We don't. We do not know what is going on in the heart, mind and soul of the dying person unless they vocally say something.[/quote]
It would be far more productive to explain charitably to those non-mass-goers the need to attend Sunday mass, than to speculate about who has more graces.

[CatherineM]

They say that ignorance of the law is no excuse, so those that do know the law are held even more accountable.

[picchick]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1475436' date='Mar 10 2008, 11:08 PM']It would be far more productive to explain charitably to those non-mass-goers the need to attend Sunday mass, than to speculate about who has more graces.[/quote]


Exactly. Don't judge. That is all I am saying. Educate, guide and let God deal with the rest.

[mortify]

[quote name='picchick' post='1475423' date='Mar 10 2008, 09:56 PM']I understand what you are saying but I still will have to disagree with you. We first off do not know why the person is missing Mass. We don't know if they even were taught that missing Mass was a sin. Maybe this was not reinforced for them.[/quote]

My response is based off the statement that they "believe everything the Church teaches."

[quote]I agree that if you die in the state of mortal sin then you will go to hell. But how can one person say to another, "You are in a state of mortal sin."? Isn't it better to say, "Hey, man, do you know that it is a mortal sin to miss Mass? You need to go every Sunday." Then if her were to reply, "Why, yes, I know that I should go every Sunday but I do not feel it is necessary," we could say that she is committing a mortal sin knowingly. Plus, how do we know if a person dies without repenting? We don't. We do not know what is going on in the heart, mind and soul of the dying person unless they vocally say something.[/quote]

You're right, we don't know whether someone dies repentant since this is a matter between the individual and God, and so we can't judge.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]I just want to defend some of the sleepers out there in the congregation. I know that you would never fall asleep at a party because it would be considered rude. However, sometimes I am so beat because I work two 12 hour shifts and am only able to get to the 8 pm Mass that I do fall asleep. There are times when I will work an 8 and a 12 hr shift and still find myself nodding off. I try not to but it happens. Now I would never go to a party after doing this because I know I won't survive. However, I need to and want to go to Mass. There is no choice for me in the matter. So, I do the best I can.

Again, only God can know what is going on in a person's soul.

Meg[/quote]

Picchick,

I have known priests who have reprimanded those who come in late, leave early or fall asleep during mass and I have known priests who have said that we don't know the circumstances as to why they are late, fall asleep or have to leave early and he excuses them. My point was that we all know that there are folks at church who are there, who would rather be somewhere else or are there not of their free-will. My mother used to force my father to go to mass with her.




QUOTE("Kyrie eleison @ Mar 10 2008, 10:18 AM) *
A person who goes to mass every Sunday and rarely misses because it is a mortal sin to miss mass without a good excuse, they are generally a good person, but are more lukewarm in their walk with Jesus.
or

A person who fully believes in the Church and it's teachings, tries their best to show the love of Jesus to each and everyone that they encounter,feels the fire of love of Jesus everyday in their lives but only goes to mass 3 or 4 times out of the year.


[quote]The first person is better off because the second person is in a state of mortal sin, which cuts you off from Sanctifying Grace.[/quote]

Mortify,

So, are you stating that the second person is cut off from all sanctifying grace? That any good works that this second person performs cannot in some way redeem?

[prose]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1475175' date='Mar 10 2008, 06:42 PM']I remember when I was a kid and even in my teens I went to mass because I was forced to. I never really listened and just went through the motions. I see people who are at mass now who are half asleep and some even sleeping and are awaken by their own snore. I wonder what type of graces these folks receive.[/quote]

All the graces that God feels they need in that moment.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Deb' post='1475039' date='Mar 10 2008, 03:42 PM']Grace is received every time you receive a sacrament so the person who goes every week will receive God's grace.
A person who only goes now and then but, is a very good person, is also lukewarm or they would be going to church. Not going to church is a sin ya know.[/quote]

Do we receive any graces by being charitable, doing good works and giving alms or are we shut out because we do not receive the sacraments?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1474924' date='Mar 10 2008, 12:18 PM']A person who goes to mass every Sunday and rarely misses because it is a mortal sin to miss mass without a good excuse, they are generally a good person, but are more lukewarm in their walk with Jesus.
or

A person who fully believes in the Church and it's teachings, tries their best to show the love of Jesus to each and everyone that they encounter,feels the fire of love of Jesus everyday in their lives [b]but[/b] only goes to mass 3 or 4 times out of the year.[/quote]

Because I think this whole thread is pretty pointless, I'm gonna say they're both going to Hell.

I mean, seriously, don't we have anything better to talk about?

[mortify]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1475685' date='Mar 11 2008, 10:56 AM']Mortify,

So, are you stating that the second person is cut off from all sanctifying grace? That any good works that this second person performs cannot in some way redeem?[/quote]

Yes, that's correct.

[Deb]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison"' date='Mar 11 2008, 03:14 PM' post='1475778']
Do we receive any graces by being charitable, doing good works and giving alms or are we shut out because we do not receive the sacraments?

[/quote

I don't know. God's grace is first of all the gift of the Holy Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. Grace is a part of conversion. Grace also includes the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Grace cannot be known except by faith. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we cannot rely on our works or our feelings to conclude that we are justified or saved.

Grace is given to spur you on to a closer relationship with God. Doing charitable things and good works etc is great but, does it bring you closer to God. The more often you receive the sacraments, the more grace you receive and the more you are transformed to the likeness of our Christ Jesus. The more you are like our Lord, the more good works you will naturally do. It is all a work of conversion. The Eucharist was really the last words of Jesus Christ when he knew he the time of his death was near. He meant for us to receive it and he meant every day.

[Jaime]

[quote name='mortify' post='1475346' date='Mar 10 2008, 10:08 PM']The first person is better off because the second person is in a state of mortal sin, which cuts you off from Sanctifying Grace.[/quote]

that is far too simplistic an understanding of mortal sin to be correct

[mortify]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1475848' date='Mar 11 2008, 05:41 PM']that is far too simplistic an understanding of mortal sin to be correct[/quote]

[quote][color="#0000FF"][b]Q. 280. What is mortal sin?[/b]

A. Mortal sin is a grievous offense against the law of God.

[b]Q. 281. Why is this sin called mortal?[/b]

A. This sin is called mortal because it deprives us of spiritual life, which is sanctifying grace, and brings everlasting death and damnation on the soul.[/color][/quote]

[url="http://www.heartlandcatholic.org/BC3/bc3-06.html"]http://www.heartlandcatholic.org/BC3/bc3-06.html[/url]

Edited March 12, 2008 by mortify