Pope Is God?

[dairygirl4u2c]

i've never seen this argument before.
i think it's mostly semantics and word games but want to get your response.

the CC obviously teaches that God is God and there is not other. and that the pope is not God. but, tehse from the popes seems to suggest that they are calling themself God....


[quote]I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do…wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? (Decret. par. Distinct 96 ch. 7 edit. Lugo 1661)
Quote:
"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." The RC New York catechism
Quote:
"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." (Barclay Cap. XXVII p. 218 Cities Petrus Bertanous, Pius V)
Quote:
"the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who being God, cannot be judged by man." (Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can 7 Satis Evidentur Decret Gratian Primer Para) Pope Nicholas I[/quote]

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1473603' date='Mar 7 2008, 11:35 AM']i've never seen this argument before.
i think it's mostly semantics and word games but want to get your response.

the CC obviously teaches that God is God and there is not other. and that the pope is not God. but, tehse from the popes seems to suggest that they are calling themself God....[/quote]

In the Old Testament in Exodus 21.6, 22.8,9,28 the Scriptures refer to the judges as "gods" ("Elohim" in the Hebrew). This means that they were the supreme representatives of God on Earth and carry his authority.

In Aristotelian/Thomistic language we could refer to God himself as the efficient cause of his authority, but those in rightful ecclesiastical offices as the material causes of his authority, so that in a way God himself resides in them and they must be treated as such. This is what Catholicism is not afraid to say about the Successor of St. Peter, no matter what people might think.

[jeffpugh]

Interesting.

[LouisvilleFan]

Look up what the word "vicar" means.

Not to mention the fact that we have no context for those quotes. What you make of the phrase "Xavier denies Trinity" depends on whether it's on the front page or in the sports section

[dairygirl4u2c]

that they taught that way is supported by what people believed:

"To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, Cum. Inter, title 14, chapter 4, "Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium", Column 140, Paris, 1685. (In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, "Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam" (“Our Lord God the Pope”) can be found in column 153).


It's still plausible people were misunderstanding what the popes were saying. but it's a interesting theory.

Edited March 7, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

also,,, to add some lay understanding to perhaps reflect the understanding of what the popes meant in the middle ages when they said no salvation outside the CC....

"Christ Jesus left you this sweet key of obedience; for He left His Vicar, whom you are all obliged to obey until death. And whoever is outside his obedience is in a state of damnation." St. Catherine of Siena, MCH, reference #374, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: "The Book of Obedience", Chapter 1: "There is No Salvation Without Personal Submission to the Pope").

obediance implies they might be rejecting it, which means they're not the innocent ones who knew no better but.

"To be subject to the Roman Pontiff is absolutely necessary for salvation." St. Thomas Aquinas, Against the Errors of the Greeks, Pt. 2, ch. 36; PTC:484, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: "The Book of Obedience", Chapter 1: "There is No Salvation Without Personal Submission to the Pope").

Edited March 7, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Mitchell_b55]

I have seen these quoted before, I would like to find the context and perhaps the original language (Latin, presumably, which I can handle).

[dairygirl4u2c]

"God does not forgive sins except to those who are baptized."
To Catechumens on the Creed, sermon vii: 15

[SanctitasDeo]

It seems to me that what the Popes are saying is not so much that they are God, but they have been given authority be him to act on Earth in his name.

From Matthew 16:19
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This is what I believe of the Prophet of my church. He was given authority to act on behalf of the world in God's name. That is, essentially, what the priesthood is. So it isn't so much that he is claiming to be God, as God is claiming that he trusts he Servant so much that he will back up his Servant whatever he does, because what he does is good.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1474071' date='Mar 8 2008, 10:06 AM']"God does not forgive sins except to those who are baptized."
To Catechumens on the Creed, sermon vii: 15[/quote]

Of course.

The question is, can God apply the graces of Baptism to the unbaptized?

[LouisvilleFan]

In thinking about these questions a little more, the key to understanding how these quotes can be true is to view them in the context of progressive revelation.

We don't know exactly what Christ taught the apostles, but we know what has been handed down to us in Scripture and Tradition. Through time, and through the Church, God has slowly revealed more and more of himself: first came key Christian doctrines like the Trinity and the divine-human natures of Christ in one person, and a few hundred years later, the declaration that Mary is the Theotokos and Mother of God. Even the sacraments took many hundreds of years to develop into their current practice and it's probably safe to say none of the early popes knew anything of papal infallibility, but God's grace was there nonetheless to protect the head of the Church on earth from teaching heresy.

Likewise, while doctrines like "no salvation outside of the Catholic Church" or "God does not forgive sins except to those who are baptized" were probably understood originally in their strict sense, since then the Holy Spirit has helped the Church to more fully appreciate them. After all, the strict understanding of these teachings makes God into a slave of his Church and his sacraments. But we know that God works outside of the earthly confines of the Church, and that wherever God is saving souls, the Church is there spiritually because Christ and the Church are inseparable.

So, rather than dismissing these archaic teachings out of hand because your conscience is rightly telling you that they sound wrong, dig a little deeper and discover that they are true, but the truth is quite beautiful indeed.

Edited March 9, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Slappo]

I'd like to see the full text and original language as well (again presumably Latin). Especially since if the text is in Latin, Dominum Deum nostrum Papam could mean several things based on the rest of the words as word order in Latin is only a slight aid to translation.

[dairygirl4u2c]

"no salvation outside" the church.

it's interesting to read the orthodox on the matter, as they sound exactly like the CC, except insert "orthodox" whereever you see CC.
[quote]--Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour, Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your sins.... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox, and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever.

--The same writer further states that in keeping with its apophatic mindset, the Orthodox Church remains circumspect on this matter. Thus, to state that there is "no salvation outside the Church" is not the same as saying that "no one outside the Church can be saved." Sacred Scriptures show that ultimately, God looks upon the heart of man and has mercy upon those whom He chooses to have mercy (Rom 9:18), and that He rewards each according to his intentions and deeds (Rom 2:6 ff.). Therefore, concerning those who were never afforded the opportunity to encounter Orthodoxy, God can save them.[/quote]

[thessalonian]

Jesus said he who hears you hears me. God speaks through the Pope. In that sense when the Pope speaks in the duties of his office we should listen because "WHATEVER you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven". God of course cannot bind a lie or what is immoral and so this implies that the Holy Spirit, i.e. God guides the words of the Popes in certain circumstances and we darn well better listen.