Martin Luther Not A Heretic?

[CatherineM]

Whenever I have someone argue with me about Luther, I just tell them to go read unedited copies of his personal letters. He was surprisingly profane. That can really open someone's eyes.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1573060' date='Jun 16 2008, 07:02 PM']Whenever he rejected outright the truths of the Catholic Church, so perhaps officially on 31 October, 1517 when he on the vigil of All Saints', affixed his Ninety-five Theses to the Castle Church in Wittenberg. He was excommunicated by Pope Leo X on January 3, 1521.[/quote]

I think this is the question the seminarians were addressing in whatever conference or get-together the press release was talking about (when this tread was started).

Can't say for sure, but I don't think there is anything in the "95 Theses" that conflicts with Catholic doctrine. Most of it is related to how the doctrine of purgatory is taught and the practices surrounding it, which the Church reformed. However, based on the content of his later writings that questioned four of the sacraments and the doctrine of Transubstantiation (having just researched some of this), it seems unquestionable that Pope Leo X was right to excommunicate him when he did.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1573147' date='Jun 16 2008, 08:40 PM']Whenever I have someone argue with me about Luther, I just tell them to go read unedited copies of his personal letters. He was surprisingly profane. That can really open someone's eyes.[/quote]

He was indeed, though he was also just as passionate about the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, believing that one could not be a Christian if they denied this teaching. Being profane in itself wouldn't cause someone to be excommunicated though, but his being that way does seem to have caused Luther to very readily question authority and the Church in matters that did result in his excommunication.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1573722' date='Jun 17 2008, 08:20 AM']I think this is the question the seminarians were addressing in whatever conference or get-together the press release was talking about (when this tread was started).

Can't say for sure, but I don't think there is anything in the "95 Theses" that conflicts with Catholic doctrine. Most of it is related to how the doctrine of purgatory is taught and the practices surrounding it, which the Church reformed. However, based on the content of his later writings that questioned four of the sacraments and the doctrine of Transubstantiation (having just researched some of this), it seems unquestionable that Pope Leo X was right to excommunicate him when he did.
He was indeed, though he was also just as passionate about the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, believing that one could not be a Christian if they denied this teaching. Being profane in itself wouldn't cause someone to be excommunicated though, but his being that way does seem to have caused Luther to very readily question authority and the Church in matters that did result in his excommunication.[/quote]

The 95 Theses of Luther where heretical, perhaps not all 95 theses but even still. He does reject in the 95 theses the authority of the Pope, therefor the Church.

[Alycin]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1573948' date='Jun 17 2008, 02:23 PM']The 95 Theses of Luther where heretical, perhaps not all 95 theses but even still. He does reject in the 95 theses the authority of the Pope, therefor the Church.[/quote]

Did he reject the authority of the Pope outright, or did he reject the particular Pope that was allowing the abuses to occur? (A sincere question, because I do not know the answer.)

[Galloglasses]

Common misconception. Luther was not a heretic outright. He was a dissenter for a while. I can't remember when it was, but an authorised Theological debate between him and a Vatican Envoy, (which ended in a stalemate), radicalised his veiws towards heresy, he was still a Catholic when he put the 95 theses on the Door of that Church, (it was common in those days to post notices on Church doors where people would see them, the 95 theses were in Latin, he was aiming towards the educated elite) There is no official date for the reformation. (I've wrote a paper on the Reformation, I can post it if you'd like)

But yeah, by the end of his life, he was a heretic.

[KnightofChrist]

I'm a little pressed for time, but Pope Leo X in the papal bull Exsurge Domine condemned 41 of Luther’s theses as heresy. So the answer would be found in Exsurge Domine.

[Galloglasses]

Thats true, but they weren't heresies until after Luther went to extremes, then the Pope condemned them as heresy. Before that, he merely tried to censure Luther.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1573973' date='Jun 17 2008, 01:54 PM']Thats true, but they weren't heresies until after Luther went to extremes, then the Pope condemned them as heresy. Before that, he merely tried to censure Luther.[/quote]

I must disagree they would have been heresies even before Luther went to his extremes. The truth of something does not change, this case the truth that at least 41 of his 95 theses where heresy. Luther could have avoid formal heresy for himself, but that would not have changed the heretical things he said or wrote from being heresy.

[Galloglasses]

Then I must've been confused. He wasn't excommunicated outright for the theses, (hence my mention of censure. Later he would be called to Rome to give account, but going into this would drag across the entire developement of the Reformation), he was later in life after the debate he took part in, (it happened at a later date then the Theses being nailed to the door of Wittenburg Church)

[Alycin]

Did he reject the authority of the Pope outright, or did he reject the particular Pope that was allowing the abuses to occur? (A sincere question, because I do not know the answer.)

[Galloglasses]

He didn't. Not at first.

After the debate between him and the Roman Envoy, he became convinced that the Papacy was illegitimit. (Remember, the debate ended in a stalemate, the Roman Envoy could argue all of Luther's points into the ground, but he couldn't give decent account to the Church's) After this he began rejecting the Pope.

[Alycin]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1573988' date='Jun 17 2008, 03:19 PM']He didn't. Not at first.

After the debate between him and the Roman Envoy, he became convinced that the Papacy was illegitimit. (Remember, the debate ended in a stalemate, the Roman Envoy could argue all of Luther's points into the ground, but he couldn't give decent account to the Church's) After this he began rejecting the Pope.[/quote]

oh okay, thanks.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1573986' date='Jun 17 2008, 01:17 PM']Did he reject the authority of the Pope outright, or did he reject the particular Pope that was allowing the abuses to occur? (A sincere question, because I do not know the answer.)[/quote]
Some of the theses can be read as referring to the actions of the reigning pope (i.e., those dealing with the construction of St. Peter's), while others can be read as an attack upon the office of the papacy itself.

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1474180' date='Mar 8 2008, 02:12 PM']Yeah, I don't know why my topic got removed. Here's the link to the story:
[url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3492299.ece"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/f...icle3492299.ece[/url]
From The Times
March 6, 2008
That Martin Luther? He wasn’t so bad, says Pope

Pope Benedict XVI is to rehabilitate Martin Luther, arguing that he did not intend to split Christianity but only to purge the Church of corrupt practices.

Pope Benedict will issue his findings on Luther (1483-1546) in September after discussing him at his annual seminar of 40 fellow theologians — known as the Ratzinger Schülerkreis — at Castelgandolfo, the papal summer residence. According to Vatican insiders the Pope will argue that Luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy, was not a heretic.

Cardinal Walter Kasper, the head of the pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said the move would help to promote ecumenical dialogue between Catholics and Protestants. It is also designed to counteract the impact of July's papal statement describing the Protestant and Orthodox faiths as defective and “not proper Churches”.

The move to re-evaluate Luther is part of a drive to soften Pope Benedict's image as an arch conservative hardliner as he approaches the third anniversary of his election next month. This week it emerged that the Vatican is planning to erect a statue of Galileo, who also faced a heresy trial, to mark the 400th anniversary next year of his discovery of the telescope.

The Pope has also reached out to the Muslim world to mend fences after his 2006 speech at Regensburg University in which he appeared to describe Islam as inherently violent and irrational. This week Muslim scholars and Vatican officials met at the pontifical Council for Inter-Religious Dialogue in Rome to begin laying the groundwork for a meeting between the Pope and leading Muslims, also expected to be held at Castelgandolfo.

Cardinal Kasper said: “We have much to learn from Luther, beginning with the importance he attached to the word of God.” It was time for a “more positive” view of Luther, whose reforms had aroused papal ire at the time but could now be seen as having “anticipated aspects of reform which the Church has adopted over time”.

The Castelgandolfo seminar will in part focus on the question of apostolic succession, through which the apostles passed on the authority they received from Jesus to the first bishops. After the Reformation Protestants took the view that “succession” referred only to God's Word and not to church hierarchies but some German scholars have suggested Luther himself did not intend this.

Luther challenged the authority of the papacy by holding that the Bible is the sole source of religious authority and made it accessible to ordinary people by translating it into the vernacular. He became convinced that the Church had lost sight of the “central truths of Christianity”, and was appalled on a visit to Rome in 1510 by the power, wealth and corruption of the papacy.

In 1517 he protested publicly against the sale of papal indulgences for the remission of sins in his “95 Theses”, nailing a copy to the door of a Wittenberg church. Some theologians argue that Luther did not intend to confront the papacy “in a doctrinaire way” but only to raise legitimate questions - a view Pope Benedict apparently shares.

Luther was excommunicated by Pope Leo X, who dismissed him initially as “a drunken German who will change his mind when sober”.[/quote]

This is good. I will admire the Pope on this.

[Nihil Obstat]

It seems to me as if the Reformation was a bit of a kick in the pants to the Church from God.
There were abuses going on, and we finally realized that during the Reformation, and cleaned everything up.
Maybe Luther was a heretic, maybe he wasn't, but if he hadn't ignited the Reformation, who knows if the Church would have cleaned everything up or not.