Martin Luther Not A Heretic?

[LouisvilleFan]

A discussion started on this yesterday, but wasn't backed up in all the hacking/spamming mess.

So, there's a story in the [url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3492299.ece"]London Times[/url] about Pope Benedict XVI's intention to publish a statement in September arguing that Martin Luther was not a heretic. I personally find this pretty interesting since I grew up Lutheran, learned the Small and Large Catechisms (though I didn't retain much of that stuff), and kinda turned to Luther's writings as for pastoral guidance while considering Catholicism.

I imagine Benedict's opinion will focus on where Luther was at in his theology when Leo excommunicated him, not at the end of his life. Pretty cool to know that a pope can come out with a statement like this, because I highly doubt it ever would've happened before John Paul II.

[goldenchild17]

I can't wait for this to officially come out.

[Mitchell_b55]

I'm sure that it won't so you can rest easy.

[Ziggamafu]

Yeah, I don't know why my topic got removed. Here's the link to the story:
[url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3492299.ece"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/f...icle3492299.ece[/url]
From The Times
March 6, 2008
That Martin Luther? He wasn’t so bad, says Pope

Pope Benedict XVI is to rehabilitate Martin Luther, arguing that he did not intend to split Christianity but only to purge the Church of corrupt practices.

Pope Benedict will issue his findings on Luther (1483-1546) in September after discussing him at his annual seminar of 40 fellow theologians — known as the Ratzinger Schülerkreis — at Castelgandolfo, the papal summer residence. According to Vatican insiders the Pope will argue that Luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy, was not a heretic.

Cardinal Walter Kasper, the head of the pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said the move would help to promote ecumenical dialogue between Catholics and Protestants. It is also designed to counteract the impact of July's papal statement describing the Protestant and Orthodox faiths as defective and “not proper Churches”.

The move to re-evaluate Luther is part of a drive to soften Pope Benedict's image as an arch conservative hardliner as he approaches the third anniversary of his election next month. This week it emerged that the Vatican is planning to erect a statue of Galileo, who also faced a heresy trial, to mark the 400th anniversary next year of his discovery of the telescope.

The Pope has also reached out to the Muslim world to mend fences after his 2006 speech at Regensburg University in which he appeared to describe Islam as inherently violent and irrational. This week Muslim scholars and Vatican officials met at the pontifical Council for Inter-Religious Dialogue in Rome to begin laying the groundwork for a meeting between the Pope and leading Muslims, also expected to be held at Castelgandolfo.

Cardinal Kasper said: “We have much to learn from Luther, beginning with the importance he attached to the word of God.” It was time for a “more positive” view of Luther, whose reforms had aroused papal ire at the time but could now be seen as having “anticipated aspects of reform which the Church has adopted over time”.

The Castelgandolfo seminar will in part focus on the question of apostolic succession, through which the apostles passed on the authority they received from Jesus to the first bishops. After the Reformation Protestants took the view that “succession” referred only to God's Word and not to church hierarchies but some German scholars have suggested Luther himself did not intend this.

Luther challenged the authority of the papacy by holding that the Bible is the sole source of religious authority and made it accessible to ordinary people by translating it into the vernacular. He became convinced that the Church had lost sight of the “central truths of Christianity”, and was appalled on a visit to Rome in 1510 by the power, wealth and corruption of the papacy.

In 1517 he protested publicly against the sale of papal indulgences for the remission of sins in his “95 Theses”, nailing a copy to the door of a Wittenberg church. Some theologians argue that Luther did not intend to confront the papacy “in a doctrinaire way” but only to raise legitimate questions - a view Pope Benedict apparently shares.

Luther was excommunicated by Pope Leo X, who dismissed him initially as “a drunken German who will change his mind when sober”.

[Archaeology cat]

Here's a [url="http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=57062"]response [/url]to that article:

The Forum: Rehabilitating Luther: a London Times theory

by Phil Lawler
special to CWNews.com

Mar. 6, 2008 (CWNews.com) - "Pope Benedict is to rehabilitate Martin Luther," announces reporter Richard Owen in the eye-catching opening phrase of his story in the London Times.

Reports that appear in the Times often find their way into other news stories. That is unfortunate, because the Times has a track record of sensational and misleading coverage of Vatican affairs. This story provides one more example.

Here are the facts that Owens supplies:

* In the Ratzinger Schülerkreis, the informal seminar that Pope Benedict holds each year with his former theology students, the topic for discussion at this year's August session will be Luther's teaching and influence.
* Cardinal Walter Kasper (bio - news) says: “We have much to learn from Luther, beginning with the importance he attached to the Word of God."

Can one logically conclude, from those two facts, that the Pope will "rehabilitate" Luther? No; not even close.

Cardinal Kasper certainly must be taken seriously. As president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity he plays a key role in ecumenical dialogue. But Richard Owen is not reporting on an initiative taken by Kasper's office; he says that the Pope will issue a statement at the conclusion of an informal seminar.

Ordinarily these summer seminars do not result in formal statements, much less papal policy statements. Yet the Times story leads readers to believe that this year's session will end with a very important declaration of Church teaching. Moreover, several months before the conversation between the Pope and his old students even begins, Owen tells us what conclusions that seminar will reach.

Owen cites "Vatican insiders" to buttress his prediction that Pope Benedict will find Luther innocent of heresy. But who are these insiders, and where is the evidence for their remarkable prediction? You won't find those questions answered in the Times story.

Citing Cardinal Kasper again-- but, significantly, not quoting him directly-- Owen says that the Pope's statement on Luther will have a positive impact on Catholic-Protestant relations. He continues: "It is also designed to counteract the impact of July's papal statement describing the Protestant and Orthodox faiths as defective and “not proper Churches."

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. The document issued by the Vatican last July was not a papal statement but a "Response to Questions" from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It said that the Protestant denominations, lacking the Eucharist, "cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called 'Churches' in the proper sense"-- a formulation that is subtly but significantly different from the inaccurate quotation in the Times article. Finally, the Vatican statement did not apply the same criticism to the Orthodox churches; on the contrary it affirmed that they should be recognized by Catholics as "sister churches."

If the Times report can cram three significant errors of fact into a single sentence, how likely is it that the paper's predictions are accurate? Prudent readers can make their own judgments.

[jeffpugh]

This is my message to those chumps who tried to say that Pope Benedict is saying Luther wasn't wrong: "Tell that to the thirty freakin' thousand denominations out there who think they've got it right. Thanks, Luther."



And Goldenchild, don't be a chump.

[LouisvilleFan]

I'm not sure that anyone is suggesting Benedict XVI will go as far as saying Luther wasn't wrong. We are all wrong about a lot of things, but we aren't all heretics. I think he could say Leo was wrong to excommunicate him, but of course that's more a matter of personal opinion about something we can't change now.

It's also misleading to say 30,000 denominations all believe they are right. Effectively, there aren't nearly that many denominations because most Protestants are perfectly fine with worshiping/praying/working with Christians who don't share their specific affiliation. And many (if not most) don't presume to be right about all matters concerning God. Some are even willing to accept the possibility that Catholicism is the Truth.

I'm curious... in what ways, good and bad, do you all think the world would be different today if Protestantism had never developed?

Edited March 8, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1474180' date='Mar 8 2008, 02:12 PM']Yeah, I don't know why my topic got removed.[/quote]

It wasn't removed. They had to use a backup of the phorum to restore it, so any posts made after the backup were lost.

[N/A Gone]

The idea that Luther did not intend to split, but simply reform and always intended to stay as 1 universal church is also the driving view of Carl Braaten in his book "Mother Church"

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Church-Carl-E-Braaten/dp/0800630823/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205025208&sr=8-1"]http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Church-Carl-E...5208&sr=8-1[/url]

He is a lutheran.

[mortify]

Don't worry, Luther is a heretic and he wont be rehabilitated.

Apparently it was a case of poor reporting: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=77828"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=77828[/url]

[KnightofChrist]

Luther taught that the Pope was the antichrist.

[Paddington]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1474339' date='Mar 8 2008, 09:18 PM']It's also misleading to say 30,000 denominations all believe they are right. Effectively, there aren't nearly that many denominations[/quote]

Yes!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1474402' date='Mar 8 2008, 06:36 PM']Don't worry . . .[/quote]
I'm not worried at all, because Protestant theology tends to bore me.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1474390' date='Mar 8 2008, 10:14 PM']The idea that Luther did not intend to split, but simply reform and always intended to stay as 1 universal church is also the driving view of Carl Braaten in his book "Mother Church"

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Church-Carl-E-Braaten/dp/0800630823/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205025208&sr=8-1"]http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Church-Carl-E...5208&sr=8-1[/url]

He is a lutheran.[/quote]

Luther didn't want to create his own movement. That's nothing new. Lutheranism started because Catholic bishops were too darn stubborn to correct blatant offenses to their own faith. Knowing what Catholicism was like for much of the 500 years preceding the Reformation, and what it's like in South America, I can only conclude that Protestantism has not be all bad for the Church. Besides, it's not like we can pretend the Reformation never happened. At the least, a 500-year-old Christian movement must has something to teach us, if we're willing to listen.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1474539' date='Mar 9 2008, 03:54 AM']I'm not worried at all, because Protestant theology tends to bore me.[/quote]

Maybe you should study it more.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1474665' date='Mar 9 2008, 05:19 PM']Maybe you should study it more.[/quote]
I did enough of that when I was a Protestant.