Traditional Catholic Vs. Modern Catholic

[M.SIGGA]

How about just loyal and faithful, where do those fit in? I attend both the latin and novus ordo and I like them equally. Is there a title for Catholics like me?

[Hananiah]

How about just loyal and faithful, where do those fit in? I attend both the latin and novus ordo and I like them equally. Is there a title for Catholics like me?

Well, anyone who believes in all the dogmas of the Church and is in subjection to the Pope can rightfully call himself orthodox. Orthodox is a good title.

[Oik]

Um, has anyone attended a Byzantine catholic liturgy. If you have I would like to hear your thoughts. If not, then you need to.

PS If you are planning to do so, please do some research first, mostly because the expressions do vary.

[Hananiah]

Um, has anyone attended a Byzantine catholic liturgy. If you have I would like to hear your thoughts. If not, then you need to.

PS If you are planning to do so, please do some research first, mostly because the expressions do vary.

I love the Byzantine liturgy! Lo-o-o-ord have me-ercy!

Text of the liturgy:

http://esoptron.umd.edu/ugc/liturgy1.html

find a parish:

http://www.byzcath.org/lists/parlist.htm

[jasJis]

How about just loyal and faithful, where do those fit in? I attend both the latin and novus ordo and I like them equally. Is there a title for Catholics like me?

It would make you a Catholic that believes the Grace of the Holy Spirit abides forever in the Church, and God will bring correction to it, through it. Not by destroying it, not by having the flock leave it, but by intimate working of His Spirit through it, the lay and the clergy, in each of our lives. For ourselves, and in service to each other. ;)

[Laudate_Dominum]

Yes, but it should also be kept in mind that being a traditionalist does not make you some kind of archaic Catholic. The Pope has in fact encouraged the spread of the Trindentine Mass and has spoken on the importance of the traditionalist movement for the preservation of Catholic culture.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Um, has anyone attended a Byzantine catholic liturgy. If you have I would like to hear your thoughts. If not, then you need to.

PS If you are planning to do so, please do some research first, mostly because the expressions do vary.

Yes, thanks for asking! I love the East's Liturgical traditions. I also love the East's attitude toward Liturgy. There was a time when the East and West had a much more similar attitude about the importance, centrality and inviolability of the Liturgy, but sadly the West of late has departed from this in many respects.

This is ironically a stumbling block to East-West reunion. I say ironically because much of the shift in Liturgical thought in the West have been in the name of ecumenism.

Actually I have sometimes wondered if I'm called to become Byzantine. Not only because the way I think so often jives with the East but because the last couple roommates God sent my way were Byzantine Catholics and my spiritual director (whom Providence provided) is a Byzantine priest. I love being "Roman" Catholic so much, but who knows what God may want of me.

[jasJis]

There's a big difference between promoting what's great about the Tridentine Mass, in positive terms, instead of mostly presenting it as the alternative or "more correct" Mass instead of the "dirty cup" of the Novus Ordoro.

[Laudate_Dominum]

There's a big difference between promoting what's great about the Tridentine Mass, in positive terms, instead of mostly presenting it as the alternative or "more correct" Mass instead of the "dirty cup" of the Novus Ordoro.

That's a good point Jas. It's just so tempting sometimes.

I think the reason this tendency is so common is because the novus ordo replaces the old Mass so this fact implies that the novus ordo should be an improvement. Automatically one is compelled to compare and contrast.

I think it would be more effective for promoting the traditionalist cause if the Tridentine Mass was promoted in a less polemical way. I think this is a great point Jas. I will try to take it to heart.

[Adeodatus]

There's a big difference between promoting what's great about the Tridentine Mass, in positive terms, instead of mostly presenting it as the alternative or "more correct" Mass instead of the "dirty cup" of the Novus Ordoro.

Well said Jas!

I notice this is an area where people (not just the PM Phamily) tend to get careless about terminology. Just a few observations....

For instance, "Latin Mass" does not only mean "Tridentine Mass". You could also have a Latin "Novus Ordo Mass". My local parish church run by the Oratorian Fathers has a Novus Ordo Latin Mass every Sunday with fantastic music, incense, birettas (you wouldn't believe the rest!).

"Traditional" should not merely be understood as "older", but as "belonging to the Traditon of the Church". In this sense the Novus Ordo Mass is THE "Traditional Mass" of the Latin-rite Catholic Church. You are certainly free to have doubts about the English translation of the Novus Ordo, and you may deplore the liturgical liberties enacted by people in the name (but not in the true spirit) of Vatican II, BUT no one should doubt that the Novus Ordo is the Mass of our Tradition. If the Tridentine Mass had so much opposition in the years following the Council of Trent, it would never have got off the ground!!!!

I belong to a religious community which celebrates the Novus Ordo Mass, and we do it with great dignity and beauty---the "noble simplicity" that Vatican II envisioned. We sing quite a bit of Latin, and plenty of chant in either English or Latin, mostly according to our Dominican tradition and customary. I think I have never so fully realised that liturgy is the worship of mind and body so much as I have here in my own community. So the Novus Ordo can be celebrated beautifully and in accordance with the mind of the Church. I strongly urge that we should all celebrate the Novus Ordo and not go hankering after the Tridentine.

As far as I'm concerned, the "old Mass" for Dominicans like me means the "Dominican-rite Mass" which is 300 years older than the Tridentine. I have no nostalgia for the Tridentine whatsoever. The Dominican-rite is a very curious Mass, and it really looks a lot more medieval than the Tridentine. I don't know what you all would make of it----I hope you get the chance to celebrate in it.

Having sloppy liturgy in our parishes is not a good reason to run away from the Novus Ordo into the arms of the Tridentine. But better a Tridentine Mass within the Catholic Church than one of those (God forbid!) schismatic, traditionalist (so-called), Catholic (so-called) churches!!!! We should work towards using the Novus Ordo and celebrating it with dignity and beauty.

[Adeodatus]

I realise that some of you really, really want decent liturgy which is in accordance with the mind of the Church. I guess I tend to forget that because I've been "pampered" with plenty of beautiful, prayerful and sound liturgy round where I live. But I keep forgetting it's not like that in many other places. One of the things our American ex-students keep saying is how much they miss the liturgy at our priory! That's always surprised me.

Speaking of good liturgy, I'm so glad Lent is just round the corner. It's one of my favourite seasons, and Holy Week is certainly the best thing ever! I love Tenebrae in the Triduum with the candles getting extinguished gradually, singing the Lamentations, the washing of feet and the Ubi Caritas on Maundy Thursday, the three-fold prostration all the brethren do as we "creep to the Cross" to venerate it on Good Friday, singing the Reproaches in Latin and Greek, and the Easter Vigil when the Exultet is sung by the light of the Paschal Candle with billows of smoke going up, glinting in the faint light. And then of course there's that Dominican contribution to the liturgy when we whip off our black cappas at the Gloria and appear in our white habits, like symbols of the Resurrection. It really feels like dying with Christ and rising again in His glory!

Ok, I think I'll shut up now... :D

[Kilroy the Ninja]

:sadder: It all sounds too beautiful....

[vianney]

KILROY YOU STOLE MY BISHOP. I WANT HIM BACK!!! JK

Hope you enjoy Bishop DiNardo he is a beautiful orthodox man.. He is possibly one of the most intelligent men also.

Pax

[Theoketos]

I would say this kind of attitude (which is a complete departure from Catholic tradition and the mind of the Church) is a perfect example of the kind of fruits todays liturgical climate bears.

I would say that the cause of the liturgical climate today is not the fact that there is the Novus Ordo, but the cause is actually the twin evils of dualism and contraception. It is interesting to note the the Trinetine Mass, lacks those influences as it stems from before both of those were main stream (as those two things have been around as long as the Church).

Still this does not mean that becuase one prefers or attends at Trinetine Mass, one is more holy... I mean really Martin Luther attended what was Trinetine Mass, and early Luthernism stuck really close to that form. It also follows that the form (which is not really a Rite) is changeable and abusable, though it may be harder to do so.

Still it is beautiful, and helps us preserve our culture.

[Hananiah]

There's a big difference between promoting what's great about the Tridentine Mass, in positive terms, instead of mostly presenting it as the alternative or "more correct" Mass instead of the "dirty cup" of the Novus Ordoro.

I don't think all Novus Ordo Masses are dirty cups. But what we celebrate here at Penn State definitely is. Thank God we have Byzantine liturgues here.