carrdero Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 (edited) [quote]SanctitasDeo writes: I believe that there is a measure and standard of good and evil. The fact that you reject such a notion illuminates my understanding of your arguments quite a bit.[/quote] I respect your belief in your measure and standards of good and evil, what I do not approve of is the proclamation that you believe GOD adheres to these principles or expects eveyone to be agreeable to these values. [quote]SanctitasDeo writes: I believe that God offered to create us an earth so that we could gain bodies and expand our freedom, or, in other word, become more like God.[/quote] I believe that we choose these physical existences ourselves because there are some experiences that cannot occur in the spiritual realm but I think there is a bit of a restriction due to these cumbersome human suits. In order to get the best out of this physical experience we have to constantly maintain and up-keep these models. So there is a trade off. [quote]SanctitasDeo writes: You seem to say that God should save us from our own choices because he loves us and so that we can have complete 'freedom'. He can't respect our agency and save us from it at the same time.[/quote] No actually I was working from the example that other members were presenting. I describe a GOD who is a neutral objective, a watcher. Not a judge, a parent, a babysitter, or Superman. If humans want peace, justice and security, humans will have to establish it. GOD has already given us everything we need. I believe GOD’s example of Love has already been instituted. It doesn’t include fear, judgment, penalty or punishment. [quote]SanctitasDeo writes: Your beliefs about what we were doing before we came here do sound interesting, but your conceptions of agency and freedom are, frankly, bizarre, as well as impossible and pointless.[/quote] I highly doubt that they are as pointless and impossible as the superstitious concepts that some people think "sin" and "Hell"are. You may be unfamiliar with my concepts and how they pertain to my overall belief system, this may be the cause of your misunderstanding. Edited March 13, 2008 by carrdero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 [quote name='carrdero' post='1476661' date='Mar 13 2008, 05:33 AM']You may not be permitted to take another wife but this may be limited through Human Law (not necessarily GOD’s law). You may choose to live with another woman with your wife but then you would have to check with your spouse and your own conscious. But again this is your decision. When one exercises faith, or bases their decisions on fear, one can needlessly restrict their own freedom. I believe this to be the saddest most restrictive form of freedom. Even if one decides to not make a choice, that in itself is a choice.[/quote] Thank you, you have proven my point. If one decides not to make a choice it is just as restrictive as making a choice. Either way your freedom is restricted by your own will. Since you missed the point of the marriage example, here is another: I choose to shave my head. In making that decision I can no longer have any other hairstyle, I have excluded those hairstyles from being possible choices. I have restricted my own freedom to have whatever hairstyle I want by making this decision. Since choice in itself leads to, at the very least, a temporary restriction or consequence, why then should free will be free of all consequences? Common sense sees that it would be not only impractical but impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carrdero Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 [quote]Peach_cube writes: Thank you, you have proven my point. If one decides not to make a choice it is just as restrictive as making a choice.[/quote] I didn’t say anything about not making a choice being a restrictive. I don’t believe I even used the word restricitive. [quote]Peach_cube writes: Since choice in itself leads to, at the very least, a temporary restriction or consequence, why then should free will be free of all consequences? Common sense sees that it would be not only impractical but impossible.[/quote] Help me out here, what does all this have to do with GOD’s Love, Hell, and free choice again?: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 [quote name='carrdero' post='1477159' date='Mar 14 2008, 04:51 AM']I didn’t say anything about not making a choice being a restrictive. I don’t believe I even used the word restricitive. Help me out here, what does all this have to do with GOD’s Love, Hell, and free choice again?:[/quote] With the definition of freedom you insinuate that we should be completely free without consequences or penalties to make decisions otherwise it is not "free" will. A restriction is a consequence of a choice. It has everything to do with God's love, hell, and free will. You want our choices to have no consequences with respect to God, yet our decisions all have consequences no matter how "free" the conditions are in which they are made. If you what you think free will should be is incorrect, then it will change how you think or feel about God's love and hell. Because the three are intertwined holding an incorrect position on one will force you to draw an incorrect conclusion about the other two. I am merely pointing out that using the definition of freedom to support your position on free will was erroneous. Perhaps then, you need to reevaluate your thoughts on the things that are so closely tied with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carrdero Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 (edited) [quote]Peach_cube writes:With the definition of freedom you insinuate that we should be completely free without consequences or penalties to make decisions otherwise it is not "free" will. A restriction is a consequence of a choice.[/quote] Free will does not necessarily have to conjure restrictions or necessitate penalties and/or regrets. [quote]Peach_cube writes:It has everything to do with God's love, hell, and free will.[/quote] If I cut my hair it is because I have discovered that I have the ability to do so (this is usually where it begins for everyone) and that I have weighed the reasons and the responsibilities and that they do not instill worry or fear within me or coincide with pleasing or placating another entity. What you are describing as hell, free will and God's Love (and you may correct me if I am mistaken) is the consequence of someone assigned to stand in the back of me with a knife and every time I shear a part of my head, the person behind me is thrusting a knife in my back. This is not the concept of GOD that I am trying to endorse or project. Edited March 14, 2008 by carrdero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 (edited) [quote name='carrdero' post='1477334' date='Mar 14 2008, 01:11 PM']Free will does not necessarily have to conjure restrictions or necessitate penalties and/or regrets. If I cut my hair it is because I have discovered that I have the ability to do so (this is usually where it begins for everyone) and that I have weighed the reasons and the responsibilities and that they do not instill worry or fear within me or coincide with pleasing or placating another entity. What you are describing as hell, free will and God's Love (and you may correct me if I am mistaken) is the consequence of someone assigned to stand in the back of me with a knife and every time I shear a part of my head, the person behind me is thrusting a knife in my back. This is not the concept of GOD that I am trying to endorse or project.[/quote] Your example is backwards. The consequence is that YOU are standing with the knife, and thrusting the knife into God. When you do it enough, you have told God you want nothing of Him in your life. What is that called? Hell. Edit: Actually when I Think about it, your whole mindset is backwards. We are not the victim here, God is. God wants us to be with Him in heaven. But He loves us enough to give us a choice. We choose to go 'thrust the knife into Him'. we choose that we don't want God in our lives. So God gives us that; for all of eternity. God is the victim here, He doesn't get what he wants. Man gets exactly what he wants; an eternity without God. Edited March 15, 2008 by rkwright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanctitasDeo Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Sorry that I disappeared for a few days. I had to speak in two church meetings this weekend, and I've been very busy. [quote]I highly doubt that they are as pointless and impossible as the superstitious concepts that some people think "sin" and "Hell"are. You may be unfamiliar with my concepts and how they pertain to my overall belief system, this may be the cause of your misunderstanding.[/quote] See, I think that this is the cause of our misunderstanding. We don't agree on any premises, so we are not going to agree on the conclusions. Which is perfectly fine. [quote]I respect your belief in your measure and standards of good and evil, what I do not approve of is the proclamation that you believe GOD adheres to these principles or expects eveyone to be agreeable to these values.[/quote] Personally, I believe that the only way that we can increase our freedom is by adhering to certain principles. Not necessarily because God says so, but because that is the way it is. By the way, if I may ask, what made you believe the way you believe? Is this just something you've thought about for a long time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the 13th papist Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 carrdero, you are operating from a very relativistic and also hedonistic (the philosophy) mindset, both of which betray a fundamental misunderstandings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 (edited) There is heaven and hell because the Bible says there is. So, if you believe in the bible and the word then there is no debate. If you don't, why care? I took the hell test and according to Dante, I get to go to purgatory. (If I don't screw up) [b]Purgatory[/b] [i]Y[/i]ou have escaped damnation and made it to Purgatory, a place where the dew of repentance washes off the stain of sin and girds the spirit with humility. Through contrition, confession, and satisfaction by works of righteousness, you must make your way up the mountain. As the sins are cleansed from your soul, you will be illuminated by the Sun of Divine Grace, and you will join other souls, smiling and happy, upon the summit of this mountain. Before long you will know the joys of Paradise as you ascend to the ethereal realm of Heaven. See where you are going. [url="http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv"]http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv[/url] Edited March 17, 2008 by Deb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 [quote name='Deb' post='1478785' date='Mar 17 2008, 01:04 PM']There is heaven and hell because the Bible says there is. So, if you believe in the bible and the word then there is no debate. If you don't, why care? I took the hell test and according to Dante, I get to go to purgatory. (If I don't screw up) [b]Purgatory[/b] [i]Y[/i]ou have escaped damnation and made it to Purgatory, a place where the dew of repentance washes off the stain of sin and girds the spirit with humility. Through contrition, confession, and satisfaction by works of righteousness, you must make your way up the mountain. As the sins are cleansed from your soul, you will be illuminated by the Sun of Divine Grace, and you will join other souls, smiling and happy, upon the summit of this mountain. Before long you will know the joys of Paradise as you ascend to the ethereal realm of Heaven. See where you are going. [url="http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv"]http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv[/url] [/quote] The Dante's Inferno Test has sent you to Purgatory! Here is how you matched up against all the levels: Level | Score Purgatory | Very High Level 1 - Limbo | High Level 2 | Very Low Level 3 | Low Level 4 | Very Low Level 5 | Low Level 6 - The City of Dis | Very Low Level 7 | Very Low Level 8- the Malebolge | Low Level 9 - Cocytus | Very Low Level descriptions: [url="http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-information.html"]http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-information.html[/url] Take the test: [url="http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv"]http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv[/url] Purgatory is the highest level too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 (edited) Wonder why there was no heaven? Here are my scores against the average: [b]Life: You: 6.9[/b] [b]Average: 6.1 [/b][b]Mind: You: 6.9[/b] [b]Average: 6[/b] [b]Body: You: 4.3[/b] [b]Average: 5.7 [/b] [b]Spirit: You: 9.6[/b] [b]Average: 6.8[/b] [b] Friends/Family: You: 5.9[/b] [b]Average: 5.5 [/b][b]Love: You: 3.8[/b] [b]Average: 4.9[/b] [b]Finance: You: 8.4[/b] [b]Average: 6.5 [/b][size="2"][/size] Edited March 17, 2008 by Deb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 The Dante's Inferno Test has sent you to Purgatory! Here is how you matched up against all the levels: Level | Score Purgatory | Very High Level 1 - Limbo | Low Level 2 | High Level 3 | Very Low Level 4 | Very Low Level 5 | Moderate Level 6 - The City of Dis | Very Low Level 7 | Low Level 8- the Malebolge | Moderate Level 9 - Cocytus | Very Low Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Interesting how you got low on Limbo (that's moot anyways) and moderate on lvl 8... the hottest and the almost the coldest spot of hell (from what I understand) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanctitasDeo Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Does Dante's description of Hell come from Catholic doctrine? Are there levels of Hell in Catholic doctrine, as in Dante? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now