God Is Propaganda

[carrdero]

[quote]SanctitiasDeo writes: Hell is not a place that God sends us to because He wants to punish us for not doing what he said. It is a place where those who don't want to be near their Father can go. We send ourselves to Hell.[/quote]
Then if it is our choice when and where to go, then hell must be a very empty and vacant place. Who created Hell? Why does Hell exist? What purpose does Hell serve? If God does not want to punish us and if we do have the free choice to decide where we wanted to go (at any time), then there would be no such place as hell because no soul would willingly choose to go there.

[quote]SanctitiasDeo writes: The people who are in Hell would really much rather be there then in Heaven.[/quote]

Then if we have free choice (in the physical as well as the spiritiual existence) and God does not want to send us to hell, then everyone should be in heaven which would give no purpose for hell to exist.

Hell, GOD’s unconditional Love and free will cannot exist together (one or two out of these three concepts has to go in order to make sense of this God you describe). Do we have free will and free choice? Then we should be able to decide where we want to go and when. If someone else is making that decision, than it is not our choice or free will. Does God love us unconditionally? Then there can be no judgment, no punishment no matter how we act or behave. For the moment judgment and punishment are introduced, you have applied [b][i]condition[/i][/b] to God’s unconditional love and restricted your free will and choices.

[quote]SanctitiasDeo writes: He has provided the choice. Where has he not?[/quote]

Do you know of anyone (alive or dead) who would voluntarily vote to go to a place described as hell?

[quote]SanctitiasDeo writes: You don't have to accept his love, or accept that he loves you. You can reject his love if you wish to, but you cannot stop him from loving you. He still has his freedom, too.[/quote]

Again, if this was the case, who created Hell? Human souls that refused God’s love? Why does the refusal of God’s love have to be treated as a penalty or punishment? Why does a soul who refuses to accept God’s love have to go to hell? My sister doesn’t accept my love, should I move her into a penitentiary? Force her to move to another state? Is my sister (who's decision and choice is not to love me) going to move into another state or a correctional facility?

[quote]SanctitiasDeo writes: Sometime we need to be judged and corrected, if we are to become better people, and more like God.[/quote]

Isn’t that why we formed a society of agreements and laws? To help keep a civil attitude towards one another?

[quote]SanctitiasDeo writes: When we sin, we do more than separate ourselves from God (and keep in mind that it is only separation from God when we know that what we do is wrong). We also place ourselves in the power of Satan. In other words, we have less freedom.[/quote]

So if one doesn’t fear societies laws and the devil, then there is always God to fear, is this correct?

[quote]SanctitiasDeo writes: We can recover that freedom under the atonement.[/quote]
What freedom does the victims of sinful behavior receive? What if they do not want whatever God has in store for them and want to choose something else?

[quote]RedKnight writes: Excellent explanation. Thank you.[/quote]

This isn't an explanation. It is faithful chatter that raises more questions than it answers.

Edited March 11, 2008 by carrdero

[rkwright]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1475623' date='Mar 11 2008, 07:52 AM']Hell, GOD’s unconditional Love and free will cannot exist together (one or two out of these three concepts has to go in order to make sense of this God you describe). Do we have free will and free choice? Then we should be able to decide where we want to go and when. If someone else is making that decision, than it is not our choice or free will. Does God love us unconditionally? Then there can be no judgment, no punishment no matter how we act or behave. For the moment judgment and punishment are introduced, you have applied [b][i]condition[/i][/b] to God’s unconditional love and restricted your free will and choices.[/quote]
Free choice does not mean choice without consequences. Free choice means choice without coercion. God's love is unconditional because He always loves you to the point that he lets you decide your fate. No matter what He wants for us, He respects our free will. He loves you enough to give you what you want, no matter how much that saddens Him.
[quote]Do you know of anyone (alive or dead) who would voluntarily vote to go to a place described as hell?[/quote]
I wouldn't speculate on the population of Hell, but people voluntarily choose Hell when they choose to reject in their actions. By murdering someone, you are rejecting God and choosing Hell.

We used to tell 8 yr old campers: Choices have consequences. When you freely choose something, there is going to be a consequence, good or bad.

[rkwright]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1473061' date='Mar 3 2008, 04:13 PM'][b]Main Entry:[/b] free•dom
[b]Pronunciation:[/b] \ˈfrē-dəm\
[b]Function:[/b] noun
Date: before 12th century
[b]1:[/b] the quality or state of being free: as a: the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b: liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another
It is not freedom if there are penalties and consequences. If I give you a free car and I tell you that you cannot drive it after 9:00 pm or if I find any other passengers in the car, I will separate that car away from you, I am applying conditions and restricting your freedom.[/quote]

Your definition above does not include the absence of penalties, consequences or conditions.

You provide a definition of freedom but don't bother to use it in your analysis.

[the 13th papist]

God created all things; therefore he created hell. He did so that man would have a choice. God will force no man to love him, no man to be with him forever. Therefore he offers an alternative to heaven, hell.

So after disagreeing with the first line, the rest kinda falls apart.

Does anybody else wonder why people that leave Christianity and especially the Catholic faith are entirely Theologically ignorant, or leave then act like a 3rd grader who got cought with his hand in the cookie jar i.e. very hostile and with an underlying sense of shame and desparation?

[SanctitasDeo]

[quote]Hell, GOD’s unconditional Love and free will cannot exist together (one or two out of these three concepts has to go in order to make sense of this God you describe). Do we have free will and free choice? Then we should be able to decide where we want to go and when. If someone else is making that decision, than it is not our choice or free will. Does God love us unconditionally? Then there can be no judgment, no punishment no matter how we act or behave. For the moment judgment and punishment are introduced, you have applied condition to God’s unconditional love and restricted your free will and choices.[/quote]

God can still love those who are in Hell. God can love us unconditionally and still punish those who who knowingly flout his commandments. He does not restrict our free will.

[quote]Do you know of anyone (alive or dead) who would voluntarily vote to go to a place described as hell?[/quote]

Yes. Unrepentant sinners will not want to be in Heaven with the Lord. I think that it would probably be worse than being in Hell for them.

Besides, Heaven is not a big amusement park where everywhere will have fun and be happy. It isn't like God is having a birthday party and you are not invited because you called him names that one time. In Heaven, you will have to live a certain way. In Heaven, we will be one with God. If you cannot do that, if you didn't want to do that on Earth, why would you want to do that in Heaven. On Earth, you are given a chance to grow and learn, to gain a body, and to become more like your Father in Heaven and his Son. The person you become on Earth will be the person you are after you die. You will go to the Heaven of the law that you kept on Earth through the grace of our Savior.

I believe that almost everyone will end up in some form of Heaven. They will go to the place that is most suited for them. God is not out to beaver dam us. His goal is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

[quote]What freedom does the victims of sinful behavior receive? What if they do not want whatever God has in store for them and want to choose something else?[/quote]

Mmmm. That was my point. Sin limits agency. Those who sin (victims of themselves, if victims at all) and do not repent limit their agency. We have even the agency to do away with our own agency. Addicts are a good example of this.

Also, those who sin and do not repent rather obviously don't want what God has in store for them. They are choosing something else.

Your conception of agency is flawed. You seem to think that whatever we want, God must provide, otherwise we are not truly free. In doing this, you destroy God's own agency. He becomes our puppet, running about trying to make us happy by indulging whatever desires we wish. God loves us too much to do that. It really would be like a parent allowing his children whatever they desire. I don't believe that God works that way, and I don't believe that the universe works that way.

By your definition of freedom, disregarding heaven and hell for the moment, we are never free in our lives because all of our choices, everything we do, has a consquence. A definition of freedom or agency that does not include consequences, good and bad, is pretty much useless, since it is a concept that doesn't exist.

Oh, and thank you. I'm glad that I can chatter faithfully.

[carrdero]

[quote]SanctitasDeo writes: God can still love those who are in Hell.[/quote]

I am sure that God could but that still doesn’t tell me who created Hell and for what purpose it was created for. Could God still love those if hell did not exist? Why put them in hell (and souls would have to be put in hell because from the sounds and descriptions of hell, no one would willingly choose to go there)? What would be the reason to create a system that judges, sentences, punishes and segregates souls away from a God who still claims to love them unconditionally (which is impossiible if this loving BEing is imposing judgment and punishment)?


[quote]Carrdero writes: Do you know of anyone (alive or dead) who would voluntarily vote to go to a place described as hell?[/quote]

[quote]SanctitasDeo writes: Yes. Unrepentant sinners will not want to be in Heaven with the Lord. I think that it would probably be worse than being in Hell for them.[/quote]

Let me rephrase the question; Do you know of anyone (alive or dead) who would voluntarily vote to go to a place described as hell who believe in hell or an Almighty BEing that has designated such a place as hell?

[quote]SanctitasDeo writes: Besides, Heaven is not a big amusement park where everywhere will have fun and be happy. It isn't like God is having a birthday party and you are not invited because you called him names that one time.[/quote]

I am sure it isn’t.

[quote]SanctitasDeo writes: In Heaven, you will have to live a certain way.[/quote]
I am sure from the way some people describe heaven, that it is very provisional .

[quote]SanctitasDeo writes: In Heaven, we will be one with God. If you cannot do that, if you didn't want to do that on Earth, why would you want to do that in Heaven.[/quote]

Then what is the purpose of creating an earth and inhabiting it with humans? Couldn’t God have disregarded this step of creating a planet and housing physical counter-parts and kept the souls (to be one with God) in the realm where God resides?

[quote]SanctitasDeo writes: On Earth, you are given a chance to grow and learn, to gain a body, and to become more like your Father in Heaven and his Son. The person you become on Earth will be the person you are after you die. You will go to the Heaven of the law that you kept on Earth through the grace of our Savior.[/quote]

Are you saying that this physical existence on earth is a testing or proving ground? Couldn’t one grow and learn without gaining a body or enduring a physical experience?

[quote]SanctitasDeo writes: Mmmm. That was my point. Sin limits agency. Those who sin (victims of themselves, if victims at all) and do not repent limit their agency. We have even the agency to do away with our own agency. Addicts are a good example of this.[/quote]

Interesting information but I think you misunderstand my point; Try this example.

Say one person kills another. You also say that this murderer has been given the freedom of choice and chooses to kill that person. Let us say that this murderer is held accountable to God for this action but the justice and punishment does not come until after this murderer dies and passes from this earth.

What of the person who was killed?

What of the choice and freedom of the victim of the murderer?

Let us say that the murder victim chooses not to be dead but would rather continue their physical existence with their family and loved ones. Can this victim choose to return (alive) to earth and continue their responsibilities with their family? If not, how do you define this as fair and just? How can you prescribe that we’re are given the freedom and choice of killing and discerning or own right or wrong but the victims of murder do not have such a choice to continue living the life the way in the freedom that they chose for their existence. Do you believe it was God’s purpose for them to become a murder statistic?

Edited March 12, 2008 by carrdero

[carrdero]

[quote][color="#000080"]The 13th papist writes: God created all things; therefore he created hell. [/color][/quote]
Thank you, finally, a finger to point to blame at.

[quote][color="#000080"]The 13th papist writes: He did so that man would have a choice.[/color][/quote]

I choose not to go to hell.

[color="#000080"]You can’t choose, depending on your behavior, only God can choose whether to send you to heaven or hell.[/color]

Doesn't that restrict my freedom of choice?

[quote][color="#000080"]The 13th papist writes: God will force no man to love him, no man to be with him forever. Therefore he offers an alternative to heaven, hell.[/color][/quote]

Oh, ok so then Hell is not really a punishment, it is just an existence for people to dwell who decide that they do not want to accept the kind of love that God provides.

[color="#000080"]No, it's um.......it's a pretty severe penalty[/color]

Wait a minute, I thought that GOD’s love was unconditional.

[color="#000080"]It is.[/color]

Then why is there a hell?

[color="#000080"]Third Base. [/color]
Third Base

Edited March 12, 2008 by carrdero

[SanctitasDeo]

[quote]I am sure that God could but that still doesn’t tell me who created Hell and for what purpose it was created for. Could God still love those if hell did not exist? Why put them in hell (and souls would have to be put in hell because from the sounds and descriptions of hell, no one would willingly choose to go there)? What would be the reason to create a system that judges, sentences, punishes and segregates souls away from a God who still claims to love them unconditionally (which is impossiible if this loving BEing is imposing judgment and punishment)?[/quote]

I don't see it as impossible for an unconditionally loving being to impose judgement and punishment. The purpose for judgement and for punishment is to teach.

[quote]Let me rephrase the question; Do you know of anyone (alive or dead) who would voluntarily vote to go to a place described as hell who believe in hell or an Almighty BEing that has designated such a place as hell?[/quote]

Of course no one would say that they choose to go to a place of everlasting* torment, yet every day, through the choices they make, people who believe in such a place, and believe in an Almighty Being that has designated such a place, choose to go to such a place. Mystifying, but there you go.

Do you know of people that would take money now, in order to have certain things now, when they know full well that they will have to pay much more money in the end? It is the same principle, and people do it all the time.

*I should say that I personally believe that everlasting and eternal (in this context) mean that unrepentant sinners will be in hell eternally as eternally as they are unrepentant sinners. I believe that if they change, they will no longer be in hell.

[quote]I am sure from the way some people describe heaven, that it is very provisional .[/quote]

Maybe I misunderstand you, but the way I describe heaven, no. You will live certain ways. Most of the commandments are commandments because by keeping them, one can become more like God. In heaven, and one day, when we are like God, we will be so partly because we will be keeping the commandments he gave us.

[quote]Then what is the purpose of creating an earth and inhabiting it with humans? Couldn’t God have disregarded this step of creating a planet and housing physical counter-parts and kept the souls (to be one with God) in the realm where God resides?[/quote]

[quote]Are you saying that this physical existence on earth is a testing or proving ground? Couldn’t one grow and learn without gaining a body or enduring a physical experience?[/quote]

It is too bad that one cannot learn karate or phyics and know it perfectly without all of that pointless training stuff. This whole step of creating a planet with physical counterpoints is the plan God has by which we can become more like him.

It is a testing ground and a training ground. One cannot grow and learn to be more like God without gaining a body because God has a body himself.

I believe that we all agreed to come down here in the first place and receive a body and go through all of the suffering and happiness of this life. God asked everyone, and everyone that is here chose to be here. There is something inherent to this process of living that we need, and we chose to live.

[quote]Interesting information but I think you misunderstand my point; Try this example.

Say one person kills another. You also say that this murderer has been given the freedom of choice and chooses to kill that person. Let us say that this murderer is held accountable to God for this action but the justice and punishment does not come until after this murderer dies and passes from this earth.

What of the person who was killed?

What of the choice and freedom of the victim of the murderer?

Let us say that the murder victim chooses not to be dead but would rather continue their physical existence with their family and loved ones. Can this victim choose to return (alive) to earth and continue their responsibilities with their family? If not, how do you define this as fair and just? How can you prescribe that we’re are given the freedom and choice of killing and discerning or own right or wrong but the victims of murder do not have such a choice to continue living the life the way in the freedom that they chose for their existence. Do you believe it was God’s purpose for them to become a murder statistic?[/quote]

Ok, first off, both the murderer and the murdered have agency. The fact that murder takes away the freedom to act is what makes it a sin. Most sins have to do with the relationships between people, and the way they decrease others' freedom to act. Other sins decrease the sinner's own freedom to act. I differentiate between agency: the ability to make a moral choice between good and evil, and freedom: the ability to act on those choices, as well as on other choices one makes in this life. Freedom, obviously, can be limited by all kinds of things. One can be thrown into prison or locked in a box or murdered. All of these things limit freedom, but they never limit agency, which I believe is one thing intrinsic to us, something that God did not create.

If this life were all there was, murder would be most unfair. Thankfully though, there is more to existence than this life. I don't believe that God's purpose is for them to become a murder statistic, but that for agency to exist, murder is allowed. Seen from the prism of now only, many things in our lives are unfair. Sadly, the murdered cannot choose to come back because he doesn't have that freedom. Only God has the unfettered ability to act, and as we choose to become more like God, we become more and more free in our ability to act.

[carrdero]

[quote]SanctitasDeo writes: I don't see it as impossible for an unconditionally loving being to impose judgement and punishment. The purpose for judgement and for punishment is to teach.[/quote]

The purpose for judgment is to express an authoritive opinion and the purpose of punishment is to rebiliatate. Both of these methods imply conditions or conditioning, rendering an unconditional God impossible. Unconditional Love implies that one does not apply conditions to their expression of Love. Hell is a condition. Judging is a condition. Punishing, penalizing someone because they do act or behave in a way that you want them to is a condition. Blaming a individual that they must not love you because they do not do what you say is incorrect (even for an Almighty BEing who knows better). If there is some way that you can describe GOD’s love without implying condition, I would still be interesting in hearing it.

[quote]SanctitasDeo writes: It is a testing ground and a training ground. One cannot grow and learn to be more like God without gaining a body because God has a body himself.[/quote]

I would have to disagree with the majority of this. GOD (as I understand it) has full understanding of what it is like to be humanbut has never had a physical body nor has ever had a desire to incarnate into a physical existence. I also do not believe that God uses humans or test His or our love (again this implies condition). I will extend my agreement in that I believe that some people are here to learn but I believe that this is their choice and it may not pertain to becoming more like GOD.

[quote]SanctitasDeo writes: I believe that we all agreed to come down here in the first place and receive a body and go through all of the suffering and happiness of this life. God asked everyone, and everyone that is here chose to be here. There is something inherent to this process of living that we need, and we chose to live.[/quote]
This is an interesting statement because I am used to responses from religious people that God purposes our lives. I believe that GOD does not ask us to incarnate into a physical existence but has helped make it possible for souls to do this but that is basically where GOD’s interest ends. We choose our purpose, existence and our experience and we have the choice to change this plan at any time. If you believe that we all agreed to come down here then you must also be open to the possibility that there cannot be any measure or standard of good and bad or right and wrong if we are all helping each other to achieve our purpose and our goals (this includes our “sufferings and hardships” as well).

[quote]SanctitasDeo writes:Ok, first off, both the murderer and the murdered have agency. The fact that murder takes away the freedom to act is what makes it a sin. Most sins have to do with the relationships between people, and the way they decrease others' freedom to act. Other sins decrease the sinner's own freedom to act. I differentiate between agency: the ability to make a moral choice between good and evil, and freedom: the ability to act on those choices, as well as on other choices one makes in this life. Freedom, obviously, can be limited by all kinds of things. One can be thrown into prison or locked in a box or murdered. All of these things limit freedom, but they never limit agency, which I believe is one thing intrinsic to us, something that God did not create.[/quote]

I believe death sets a soul free. In a world where everyone has to die and everyone has to die in some way, murder is an appointment, a choice a soul decides how and when to leave this earth. Consider it a form of assisted suicide. Since the choice and time has already been prearranged by the victim, there is no reason that GOD can consider it wrong or offensive since it was the physical entity’s decision to die at that time and in that manner. This would also preclude any judgment, any penalty, any sin, any Hell and any reason to fear GOD which goes in direct opposition to the love people are tryng to teach and preach about this BEing.

[rkwright]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1476283' date='Mar 12 2008, 01:36 PM']The purpose for judgment is to express an authoritive opinion and the purpose of punishment is to rebiliatate.[/quote]

1) Not true. There are different schools of thought on punishment; rehabilitation is just one. Obviously the purpose of hell, since it is for eternity is not to rehabilitate.

2) You have completely ignored mine and other's arguments that your definition of freedom and free choice is completely wrong. With your main premise dead, all of your conclusions are also dead.

Honestly theres no point in trying to explain things in this area when we disagree on the basic principal of free choice. This is one premise which makes all of moral theology consistent. Theres no point in trying to understand God's justice if we don't see freedom of choice clearly.

Freedom of choice means choice without coercion or constraints; just like your definition said. IT DOES NOT mean freedom from consequences. Every choice has consequences, regardless of how free it is. Consequences do not belong to freedom.

[the 13th papist]

carrdero, read the last section of my fist post.

One of my pet peeves is talking about heaven and hell because how much does everybody on earth know, not alot because none of have been there. Also, they are spiritual realities so we can only know about them through analogy.

but replying to the subject. Both views, hell as a punishment and hell as a choice are needed, but lets be honest, nobody knows exactly about it. Somebody who rejected God during their life would probably not accept Him in death. Also, purgatory is for the punishment of sins and for spiritual perfection in order to enjoy the beatific vision.

[peach_cube]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1473061' date='Mar 3 2008, 05:13 PM'][b]Main Entry:[/b] free•dom
[b]Pronunciation:[/b] \ˈfrē-dəm\
[b]Function:[/b] noun
Date: before 12th century
[b]1:[/b] the quality or state of being free: as a: the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b: liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another
[b]It is not freedom if there are penalties and consequences[/b]. If I give you a free car and I tell you that you cannot drive it after 9:00 pm or if I find any other passengers in the car, I will separate that car away from you, I am applying conditions and restricting your freedom.
Separation is a condition and if one does not want to be separated from God one better do what God has willed or what God has told someone to do. I fail to see the freedom.[/quote]

I am free to choose a wife. As a consequence of that action I am no longer free to choose any other woman in the world. In making a choice I have limited my own freedom.

The action of making choices is a limiting action, by choosing one thing you are excluding the other. To be or remain perfectly free one would have to never make any choices, but that in itself would be the saddest and most pathetic "freedom" I could possibly imagine.

[SanctitasDeo]

[quote]If you believe that we all agreed to come down here then you must also be open to the possibility that there cannot be any measure or standard of good and bad or right and wrong if we are all helping each other to achieve our purpose and our goals (this includes our “sufferings and hardships” as well).[/quote]

I believe that there is a measure and standard of good and evil. The fact that you reject such a notion illuminates my understanding of your arguments quite a bit.

I believe that God offered to create us an earth so that we could gain bodies and expand our freedom, or, in other word, become more like God. I believe that as spirits we were quite limited in our ability to act. I also believe that there is only way to become like God, one way to expand our freedom. This involves avoiding the things that limit our freedom, like sin.

Your beliefs about what we were doing before we came here do sound interesting, but your conceptions of agency and freedom are, frankly, bizarre, as well as impossible and pointless. As rkwright said there is no way that we are going to remotely agree because our premises are so far from each other. Hell is only remotely understandable if there is a Good and an Evil. In an amoral framework, of course it would make no sense.

You seem to say that God should save us from our own choices because he loves us and so that we can have complete 'freedom'. He can't respect our agency and save us from it at the same time.

[carrdero]

[quote]the 13th Papist writes: One of my pet peeves is talking about heaven and hell because how much does everybody on earth know, not alot because none of have been there. Also, they are spiritual realities so we can only know about them through analogy.[/quote]

I think that the most important knowledge to understand first would be to get to K(NOW) GOD.

[carrdero]

[quote]Peach_cube writes:I am free to choose a wife. As a consequence of that action I am no longer free to choose any other woman in the world. In making a choice I have limited my own freedom.[/quote]

You may not be permitted to take another wife but this may be limited through Human Law (not necessarily GOD’s law). You may choose to live with another woman with your wife but then you would have to check with your spouse and your own conscious. But again this is your decision.

[quote]Peach_cube writes:The action of making choices is a limiting action, by choosing one thing you are excluding the other. To be or remain perfectly free one would have to never make any choices, but that in itself would be the saddest and most pathetic "freedom" I could possibly imagine.[/quote]
When one exercises faith, or bases their decisions on fear, one can needlessly restrict their own freedom. I believe this to be the saddest most restrictive form of freedom.

Even if one decides to not make a choice, that in itself is a choice.