God Is Propaganda

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1472792' date='Mar 3 2008, 03:36 AM']Contradicting sentences. Does God send us or do we choose?[/quote]
Double take on those two quotes. I see no contradicting terms, only congruent terms.
[quote name='carrdero' post='1472792' date='Mar 3 2008, 03:36 AM']The prisoner may be under the belief that he/she won't get caught. If this individual knew in advance that they would get caught do you think they would make the choice to perform the crime?[/quote]
Yes, they would.

[quote name='Deb' post='1472876' date='Mar 3 2008, 11:20 AM']No, that does not account for anything. God has staved off my death several times. He has even stopped time and shifted my reality (and the two others watching in horror as my father was driving us to our death) so as to save us from certain death or possibly it was just horrible dismemberment but, it was pretty awesome. There was no spoon.[/quote]
That last sentence... there is a problem with the tense.

[cmotherofpirl]

The author sounds like Job, he has not yet met the reality of God, only what other people say about
Him.

[Deb]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1472922' date='Mar 3 2008, 12:49 PM']Double take on those two quotes. I see no contradicting terms, only congruent terms.

Yes, they would.


That last sentence... there is a problem with the tense. [/quote]


It was past tense. No idea if there is a spoon now but, there was no spoon then.

[carrdero]

[quote]Delivery Boy writes: God knew us before we were even born.[/quote]

Then He would have known whether or not someone belonged in heaven or hell before they were born or even created. Why would God knowingly send someone to earth if He knew thery were going to react and behave badly or ask someone to repent for something He knew that they were going to enact? What would be the reason for God purposing this human life? To instill fear and control? To test and fortify His own love?

[quote]Delivery Boy writes:if ur gonna accuse God and say that his love has conditions thats on you.[/quote]

I am the one promoting a GOD of unconditional Love. I have no doctines of hell, no penalty, no judgment, no obligation, no repentance. I am stating that GOD will love and accept you no matter what you do. You are explaining to me that there is judgment, there is penalty, there is separation, there is hell. What exactly is your definition of unconditional love?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1473028' date='Mar 3 2008, 04:48 PM']Then He would have known whether or not someone belonged in heaven or hell before they were born or even created. Why would God knowingly send someone to earth if He knew thery were going to react and behave badly or ask someone to repent for something He knew that they were going to enact? What would be the reason for God purposing this human life? To instill fear and control? To test and fortify His own love?
I am the one promoting a GOD of unconditional Love. I have no doctines of hell, no penalty, no judgment, no obligation, no repentance. I am stating that GOD will love and accept you no matter what you do. You are explaining to me that there is judgment, there is penalty, there is separation, there is hell. What exactly is your definition of unconditional love?[/quote]
God is a God of unconditional love. But he didn't want a race of robots so we have the freedom to do good or evil in this life. But all behavior has consequences, and the consequence of evil is separation from God. God has given us the gift of freedom.

[carrdero]

[b]Main Entry:[/b] free•dom
[b]Pronunciation:[/b] \ˈfrē-dəm\
[b]Function:[/b] noun
Date: before 12th century
[b]1:[/b] the quality or state of being free: as a: the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b: liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another

[quote]cmotherofpearl writes: But he didn't want a race of robots so we have the freedom to do good or evil in this life.[/quote]
It is not freedom if there are penalties and consequences. If I give you a free car and I tell you that you cannot drive it after 9:00 pm or if I find any other passengers in the car, I will separate that car away from you, I am applying conditions and restricting your freedom.

[quote]cmotherofpearl writes: But all behavior has consequences, and the consequence of evil is separation from God. God has given us the gift of freedom.[/quote]
Separation is a condition and if one does not want to be separated from God one better do what God has willed or what God has told someone to do. I fail to see the freedom.

[prose]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1472790' date='Mar 3 2008, 02:28 AM']Have you read the Old Testament? What accounts can you personally cite of God protecting or staving off death in your lifetime?
What about human law? Would being locked up in a jail unable to freely move about be enough of a deterrent not to murder? What about one’s personal preference not to murder? One’s personal respect or belief in life? Does this not account for anything?[/quote]

If there was no objective right or wrong, there really is no purpose for jail in the first place. Human law comes from divine law. Right now, in current time, we have human law, but what is the purpose for human law if there is no objective right or wrong?

[quote name='carrdero' post='1473028' date='Mar 3 2008, 02:48 PM']Then He would have known whether or not someone belonged in heaven or hell before they were born or even created. Why would God knowingly send someone to earth if He knew thery were going to react and behave badly or ask someone to repent for something He knew that they were going to enact? What would be the reason for God purposing this human life? To instill fear and control? To test and fortify His own love?
I am the one promoting a GOD of unconditional Love. I have no doctines of hell, no penalty, no judgment, no obligation, no repentance. I am stating that GOD will love and accept you no matter what you do. You are explaining to me that there is judgment, there is penalty, there is separation, there is hell. What exactly is your definition of unconditional love?[/quote]

Parents have unconditional law for their children. If my daughter does something wrong, I would punish her. Not because I want to test their love for me, but because I love them enough to direct them. God knowing someone does not imply that he knows their actions in advance. That is very Calvinist in thinking. Predestination is not a doctrine of the Church. If a person chooses to do something wrong, God can not foresee that because it comes from a choice, not from predestination.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1473061' date='Mar 3 2008, 04:13 PM'][b]Main Entry:[/b] free•dom
[b]Pronunciation:[/b] \ˈfrē-dəm\
[b]Function:[/b] noun
Date: before 12th century
[b]1:[/b] the quality or state of being free: as a: the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b: liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another
It is not freedom if there are penalties and consequences. If I give you a free car and I tell you that you cannot drive it after 9:00 pm or if I find any other passengers in the car, I will separate that car away from you, I am applying conditions and restricting your freedom.
Separation is a condition and if one does not want to be separated from God one better do what God has willed or what God has told someone to do. I fail to see the freedom.[/quote]

Ah, and this is not a new argument. I haven't discussed this in awhile!

Have you read St. Augustine? St. Thomas Aquinas?

God gave us all free will. When this free will is not ordered properly through God's laws, one has a hard time figuring out what is good and what is evil.

If you were a parent, and those rules applied, a child with a well formed conscience could say, "My parents are right. They know I can't see well at night and my friends distract me." Thereby allowing the child to keep the freedom of the car and driving and choosing to do good through obedience.

However, if she sneaks out and freely chooses to disobey, she has abused her freedom, and can lose something materialistic against her will, the car, no friends and even her life, etc. Just like you may have the freedom to run a stop sign, but on the risk of killing someone and going to jail, or hurting yourself.

[quote]From the CCC:

1731 Freedom is the power,[b] rooted in reason and will[/b], to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. [u][b]The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."[/b][/u][28][/quote]

Edited March 4, 2008 by jmjtina

[jmjtina]

And God does know what we will choose in "advance". Knowing what we will choose is not the same as pre-destination.

He is in and out of time. To state that God does not know what we will choose is to constrain Him to our Earth time. Christ came for the whole world and salvation for all men. While God may give efficacious grace only to some, he gives [b]sufficient grace to all[/b].

It is our free will to act on that grace, to make a choice, whether bad or good and just, in order to be truly free. There are doctors of the Church who have debated the Catholic view on it, and describe it still as a mystery. Since God is love, He will give us the grace we need to choose what is good, however we are free to reject that grace as well.


again, this is a good time for St. Augie and St. Thomas.

Edited March 4, 2008 by jmjtina

[carrdero]

[quote]Prose writes: If there was no objective right or wrong, there really is no purpose for jail in the first place. Human law comes from divine law.[/quote]
Human law comes from humans. Morality and freedom comes from a consensus of the masses. If human Law came from divine Law, the Abrahamic God would have turned Himself in and would be currently serving a life sentence.

[quote]Prose writes: Right now, in current time, we have human law, but what is the purpose for human law if there is no objective right or wrong?[/quote]
Right now the jails are full of people who really did not care to participate in human’s idea of right and wrong. So this objective right and wrong does not seem to be recognized, considered or fulfilled.

[quote]Prose writes: Parents have unconditional law for their children.[/quote]
What are you talking about? Parents pile a tremendous amount of conditions on their children. They tell them what to eat, what to pick up, what to put down, where to walk, where to stay, what to say, what time to take a bath, what time to go to bed. I’m beginning to get the feeling that many people are not understanding the meaning of the term unconditional.

[quote]Prose writes: God can not foresee that because it comes from a choice, not from predestination.[/quote]

So now this God is incarcerated to human time and stripped of His omniscience?

Edited March 4, 2008 by carrdero

[carrdero]

[quote]Jmjtina writes: If you were a parent, and those rules applied, a child with a well formed conscience could say, "My parents are right.[/quote]
I am not sure it is fair to compare GOD to a parent, father or even a human figure. I believe that GOD is not masculine nor has He ever diplayed any human parental responsibilities or duties. I also should mention that many people do not have qualifying role models as parents and you can probably see why it is inappropriate to compare GOD to a father figure.

Edited March 4, 2008 by carrdero

[jmjtina]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1473468' date='Mar 4 2008, 01:22 AM']I am not sure it is fair to compare GOD to a parent, father or even a human figure. I believe that GOD is not masculine nor has He ever diplayed any human parental responsibilities or duties. I also should mention that many people do not have qualifying role models as parents and you can probably see why it is inappropriate to compare GOD to a father figure.[/quote]

It's a good thing I didn't use the analogy of the birds and the fish!

By what authority do you make those statements? Yours? Just because you don't have a qualifying role model parent doesn't justify breaking the law or running away with car. So while you mention "inappropriate" usage of God to a father figure (because I agree that while God is pure spirit, I can discuss the father figure on another thread and probably start with the Lord's Prayer "Our Father") and how not everybody who came from the Brady Bunch isn't supposed to be held by the same standards as a "loving" home, you have yet to say how you come to these conclusions. I'm just curious if you have any biblical support for your statements.

Actions have consequences. Whatever "free choice" you make has consequences. If you choose to break the law, ironically, you will lose your freedom. How is that true freedom? Because you chose it? Did you choose to lose your freedom the moment you acted on your freedom?

Separation from God is not what God wishes. (Christ died for all of mankind) Again, we are free to reject His saving grace or to accept it. That is our freedom and acted in our free will. Hell is a purposeful removal from God's love and saving grace. He does not put you there. You put yourself there and reject God's unconditional love.

In other words, your debating that you get God's unconditional love on the condition that you get to do whatever you want. Kill, steal, lie, cheat, etc, you are free to do what you will. That is to throw out the window what God truly is: goodness, justice and love. This is revealed to us through the scriptures.

Again, if your up for some great reading on the subject, check out St. Thomas and St. Augustine. That's just great stuff secular philosophers even use!

Edited March 4, 2008 by jmjtina

[carrdero]

[quote]Jmjtina writes: Separation from God is not what God wishes.[/quote]
I am sure that GOD is not a wisher, or someone who is hopeful or a BEing who places a great deal of emphasis on faith.

[quote]Jmjtina writes: In other words, your debating that you get God's unconditional love on the condition that you get to do whatever you want. Kill, steal, lie, cheat, etc, you are free to do what you will. That is to throw out the window what God truly is: goodness, justice and love. This is revealed to us through the scriptures.[/quote]

I am not debating that GOD’s love is a “Get Out Of Jail Free” card. I am pointing out the concept that sentencing, judging, punishing, separating, penalizing are not example’s of GOD’s love.
I really couldn’t imagine (or scripturally reference) a more loving justice, a more fair example of goodness or a more loving display than forgiving someone for the ignorance of killing, the misunderstanding of cheating, the thoughtlessness of stealing or the assertion of lying than to continue loving them, can you?

[quote]Prose writes: Parents have unconditional law for their children. If my daughter does something wrong, I would punish her. Not because I want to test their love for me, but because I love them enough to direct them.[/quote]
But would you send or direct them to Hell?

[SanctitasDeo]

[quote]I really couldn’t imagine (or scripturally reference) a more loving justice, a more fair example of goodness or a more loving display than forgiving someone for the ignorance of killing, the misunderstanding of cheating, the thoughtlessness of stealing or the assertion of lying than to continue loving them, can you?[/quote]

I believe that God never stops loving us. I also believe that it is not God that does the separating. When we sin, we pull away from God. Hell is not a place that God sends us to because He wants to punish us for not doing what he said. It is a place where those who don't want to be near their Father can go. We send ourselves to Hell. Everyone who wants to be in Heaven will be there. The people who are in Hell would really much rather be there then in Heaven. But we always have God's unconditional love.

[quote]Which is a flaw in God’s love. If God’s love is unconditional and God has provided a penalty or a judgment in not participating in this love, this implies that there is a condition. One should have the decision to accept or not accept another’s love. God has not provided that choice.[/quote]

He has provided the choice. Where has he not? You don't have to accept his love, or accept that he loves you. You can reject his love if you wish to, but you cannot stop him from loving you. He still has his freedom, too.

I think that the disconnect here is that you are saying that if God's love was really unconditional, then he would save whether or not we want to be saved, that he is receive us into Heaven even if we know that we really cannot live the life we would have to live there.

Everyone else is saying that if you love someone, you don't give them a job that you both know that can't do. Sometime we need to be judged and corrected, if we are to become better people, and more like God.

Applying penalty and judgement does not preclude love. 'Participate in God's love' is really the wrong phrase to use. We are always participating in God's love.

[quote]Main Entry: free•dom
Pronunciation: \ˈfrē-dəm\
Function: noun
Date: before 12th century
1: the quality or state of being free: as a: the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b: liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another[/quote]

When we sin, we do more than separate ourselves from God (and keep in mind that it is only separation from God when we know that what we do is wrong). We also place ourselves in the power of Satan. In other words, we have less freedom. We can recover that freedom under the atonement.

By not sinning, and by living as God has commanded us, our power and ability to choose--our freedom--is expanded, and we are more free.

[Red Knight]

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1474070' date='Mar 8 2008, 09:02 AM']I believe that God never stops loving us. I also believe that it is not God that does the separating. When we sin, we pull away from God. Hell is not a place that God sends us to because He wants to punish us for not doing what he said. It is a place where those who don't want to be near their Father can go. We send ourselves to Hell. Everyone who wants to be in Heaven will be there. The people who are in Hell would really much rather be there then in Heaven. But we always have God's unconditional love.
He has provided the choice. Where has he not? You don't have to accept his love, or accept that he loves you. You can reject his love if you wish to, but you cannot stop him from loving you. He still has his freedom, too.

I think that the disconnect here is that you are saying that if God's love was really unconditional, then he would save whether or not we want to be saved, that he is receive us into Heaven even if we know that we really cannot live the life we would have to live there.

Everyone else is saying that if you love someone, you don't give them a job that you both know that can't do. Sometime we need to be judged and corrected, if we are to become better people, and more like God.

Applying penalty and judgement does not preclude love. 'Participate in God's love' is really the wrong phrase to use. We are always participating in God's love.
When we sin, we do more than separate ourselves from God (and keep in mind that it is only separation from God when we know that what we do is wrong). We also place ourselves in the power of Satan. In other words, we have less freedom. We can recover that freedom under the atonement.

By not sinning, and by living as God has commanded us, our power and ability to choose--our freedom--is expanded, and we are more free.[/quote]


Excellent explanation. Thank you.