Any True Mendicants?

[Catholic777]

I was wondering if there are any orders left, not new foundations but the original Orders, which practice true mendicant poverty; that is to say, they not only have nothing personally, but also collectively anything used by the Order is titled to the Church not the community.

I know that various councils, including Trent, ultimately loosened the restrictions and most mendicants took the opportunity to corporately own things communally, if only for practical reasons.

However, I know that the Friars Minor and Friars Minor Capuchin...were exempted from this. At least for some time. However, today, I read that the property used by the Capuchin friars is titled to the Capuchin Order, usually as a local incorporation, not the Church. Has there been a change in their practice of mendicant poverty? And does the Church as a whole (the Vatican or diocesan structure) take the title to any Order's property anymore, or do all orders now own the property their members use?

If so, why the change?

Edited March 1, 2008 by Catholic777

[Gemma]

[quote name='Catholic777' post='1471670' date='Mar 1 2008, 12:49 AM']I was wondering if there are any orders left, not new foundations but the original Orders, which practice true mendicant poverty; that is to say, they not only have nothing personally, but also collectively anything used by the Order is titled to the Church not the community.

I know that various councils, including Trent, ultimately loosened the restrictions and most mendicants took the opportunity to corporately own things communally, if only for practical reasons.

However, I know that the Friars Minor and Friars Minor Capuchin...were exempted from this. At least for some time. However, today, I read that the property used by the Capuchin friars is titled to the Capuchin Order, usually as a local incorporation, not the Church. Has there been a change in their practice of mendicant poverty? And does the Church as a whole (the Vatican or diocesan structure) take the title to any Order's property anymore, or do all orders now own the property their members use?

If so, why the change?[/quote]

Franciscan Friars of the Renewal?

Little Brothers of St. Francis?

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Catholic777]

Hmm. There are certainly many newer, smaller foundations, revivals and renewals and reforms, that aspire to the original franciscan ideals (dont handle money, work day to day storing nothing up for the morrow, etc).

I dont know if any of the original Orders do, I wonder if anyone can direct us to a copy of the Capuchin or OFM constitutions. I know the Conventuals own property in common.

However, whether the things they use are official titled to the Order or rather titled to the Church or Vatican or the Diocese...is really a legal technicality. The mendicant spirit is that the Order depends totally on the generosity of others. It doesnt really matter whether the house or church or land they use is officially titled to "the Order" or to "the Church". The spirit is met as long as they aren't "in business". As long as they depend on donations given freely, for their day to day labors or ministry.

Edited March 1, 2008 by Catholic777

[Catholic777]

For legal reasons, the Church may no longer take financial responsibility for the property used by any mendicant orders...though I could imagine "true" mendicants in that sense still existing if their charism was to staff diocesan parishes but forego salary, then the diocese [i]would[/i] own their house and church etc, and they could probably then arrange it that their more minor holdings like cars and clothing etc could be titled to the diocese instead of the Order too.

But there are still many orders that, though they may legally have an incorporation seperate from the diocese to corporately hold their property, depend almost entirely on donations, including some not officially mendicant. And some officially mendicant orders now are allowed to have permanent sources of income.

Edited March 1, 2008 by Catholic777

[Catholic777]

For example, the Jesuits technically rank as Mendicant Order of Clerks Regular...but they now have schools that bring in tuition, and investments, etc. They are in business, have a regular source of income paid, not donated.

On the otherhand, many monasteries, Benedictines and such, were what the mendicants were originally trying to get away from. Which in the past, remember, were feudal institutions with vast land-holdings, agricultural income, tithes, vassals paying tribute. They owned nothing individually, but were wealthy corporately. But now, monasteries are often unlanded. They certainly dont have their own serfs or whole fiefdoms! They now often depend on donations given freely, or in thanks for ministry or prayer. Some do still make wine, or coagulated milk, or baked goods as a substantial source of permanent income, though often even this is token...they might run a gift-shop or something but the goods are largely tokens given for donations that are often much more than the good is worth.

Edited March 1, 2008 by Catholic777

[EJames2]

as far as Orders/congregation founded as Mendicants in the middle ages, if you just mean 'begging' well their are degrees of that in many orders today., and if you are talking of radical, unmitigated mendicancy?? then no.
But
the closest you get are perhaps certain Capuchin Houses in certain southern Italian Provinces..but even then..?
it seems only those who tried to renew this within said Orders, eventually had to leave, from a legal standpoint, usually no ill will, just a desire to return to a time before certain Papal Mitigations and interpretations..
so, only the renewed/restructured Communities seem to be 'true', Mendicants, in the sense of begging-door-to-door, complete relying on Divine providence through others, an absolute non-ownership of any property(communal or individual) and the non-use(even non touching) of money or credit.
working in exchange for food etc..
that leaves 'new' groups who came out of or grew within the Capuchin-Franciscan tradition, such as
the [b]Frati (franciscani) Minori Rinnovati[/b](Little Brothers of the Renewal), based in Sicily,
perhaps the [b]Franciscans of the Primitive Observance[/b], in the USA, the [b]'Capuchins of Morgan'[/b], in France(Tradtionalist)..and..the 'Little poor friars (and sisters) of Jesus and Mary ([b]Frati poveri di Gesù e Maria[/b]) in Italy>(who follow a Rule of St Francis, without papal interpretations/mitigation, regarding property/money i.e. the non-use and non-touching of monies, as prescribed in the Rule of St. Francis)
[img]http://nuke.fratipoveri.net/Portals/0/a%20passaggi.JPG[/img]
they hitchhike and walk everywhere, and spread the Gospel of Christ incarnate ,dead, Resurrected.primarily with green tracts explaining the Good News.in the streets,bars,hiways and biways,homes and Parish missions etc.
of course that makes for an limited geographic Apostolate..
the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal-USA-, would be quite mendicant for sure by N.American standards, though they do 'own title' and drive there donated cars, and have use of money and credit, for transportation and apostolate.
-
below are the Constitutions -1990 of the Capuchins.
and other links perhaps helpful to you in this discussion.
*the 'Franciscan-Archive' links below are a VERY good resource, despite the sometimes a bit extreme views of its highly educated and traditionally faithful founder*

[url="http://www.sardinia.net/capnet/english/documents.htm/constitutions.html"]http://www.sardinia.net/capnet/english/doc...stitutions.html[/url]
-
[url="http://www.franciscan-archive.org/patriarcha/index.html#orders"]http://www.franciscan-archive.org/patriarc...dex.html#orders[/url]
-
the Fourth Lateran Council
[url="http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/8920/churchcouncils/Ecum12.htm"]http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/...cils/Ecum12.htm[/url]
Concerning the First Order of St. Francis, not a few things are established in perpetuity by
Pius X
[url="http://www.franciscan-archive.org/bullarium/septiam.html"]http://www.franciscan-archive.org/bullarium/septiam.html[/url]

and sections 6 thru 8 of below reference are relevant
[url="http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/fra/FRAmain.html"]http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/fra/FRAmain.html[/url]
-
[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Clem05/exivi-e.htm"]http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Clem05/exivi-e.htm[/url]
PAX!!

Edited March 2, 2008 by EJames2

[Saint Therese]

I think the Colettine Poor Clares come pretty close for second orders.

[frateumile]

A link with photo of Capuchins of Morgon.

[mod]we don't link to SSPX'ers[/mod]

Edited March 8, 2008 by Lil Red

[EJames2]

[quote name='frateumile' post='1473056' date='Mar 3 2008, 02:08 PM']A link with photo of Capuchins of Morgan.
[mod]we don't link to SSPX'ers[/mod][/quote]
yes, but just so discerner's know, without having to look to deeply and perhaps be disappointed later, the Capuchins of Morgan ordain their priests and attend Seminary,a dn confernces, pilgrimages exclusively under/with SSPX, and consider the Novus Ordo Missae' 'illegitimate' , while i have never read anything publicly by the Brothers themselves that is negative, i used to live down there so...(personally i do empathize greatly with Msgr Lefevbre and am not a big fan of the Novus Ordo either, but) the Franciscans of Morgan's 3rd order lay Fraternity in Canada states on their website
"1) The candidate (male or female) must be at least 14 years of age (for the Novitiate).
2) The candidate must live in Canada.
3) One must develop a relationship with a SSPX priest so that the priest can be confident of giving us a letter of recommendation for entrance.
4) One [u]must sign a form indicating[/u] that he will [u]never again[/u] assist at a Novus Ordo 'Mass'.
5) One must sign a form indicating that he accepts Pope Benedict XVI as the true pope."

Edited March 8, 2008 by Lil Red

[littlesister]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1472732' date='Mar 3 2008, 12:11 AM']I think the Colettine Poor Clares come pretty close for second orders.[/quote]

If you want to consider "mendicants" as those who beg and rely on Providence, check out the Brothers of St. John of God (in at least some places/countries), the Franciscans of the Primitive Observance, and the Little Sisters of the Poor. Because of their work, some communities need to own property communally but claim nothing personally. The Little Sisters would never make ends meet for their elderly poor without donations, and two of them are out all the time begging food, supplies, and funds. Their soon-to-be-canonized foundress, Jeanne Jugan, left them her confidence in Providence and it has never failed: "If God fills the house, he will never abandon it."

[brendan1104]

Then I would think you should be able to spell the place's name right. Anyway those Capuchins despite their connection to SSPX, are the last remaining traditional house - both in liturgy and observance.

[quote name='EJames2' post='1473431' date='Mar 3 2008, 11:22 PM']i used to live down there so[/quote]

[EJames2]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1474201' date='Mar 8 2008, 11:50 AM']Then I would think you should be able to spell the place's name right. Anyway those Capuchins despite their connection to SSPX, are the last remaining traditional house - both in liturgy and observance.[/quote]
[quote]Then I would think you should be able to spell the place's name right.[/quote]

no need to be snappy..
i am not sure to what you are referring, but being that if i am tired and rushed, my French ,and English(which is not my principal language btw), gets confused, and i forgo spell checking.
p.s. i agree with you, mostly about the Liturgy part. my main difficulty is with the tertiary group.I met the Capuchins from Morgan at the Lourdes pilgrimage, and found them to be very good Brothers.
pax et bonum

Edited March 9, 2008 by EJames2

[brendan1104]

Morgon* not Morgan, France.

I believe to join the friars, the same things are needed (besides an older age requirement).

[EJames2]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1474590' date='Mar 9 2008, 10:07 AM']Morgon* not Morgan, France.

I believe to join the friars, the same things are needed (besides an older age requirement).[/quote]
hahaha, yes yes, thanks for clarification..its the spell checker in the end correcting it to a persons name ;'Morgan:' but my mind still saw 'Morgon', funny how brains work.
though i am positive they dont/wouldnt attend any Novus Ordo Masses, i am pretty sure one does not have to actually sign a statement to that affect...i think i will write them and ask the requirements...
oh, and when i said i lived there i did not mean the Ville, Morgon, but the South and Mid of France in general.
PAX