Terribly Disillusioned

[Guest CruxOfTheMatter]

Please do not simply dismiss this question as it is heartfelt and I really feel called to the priesthood in a religious order but have recently felt very dismayed by my experiences. I have visited multiple places and though I love many of their lives, and think they are nice people...they sorta creep me out. Not in what they do, but in who they are.

That must sound terribly judgmental, and I feel so guilty because they are such sincere, gentle, kind, hospitable people to me. But almost all of them struck me as being like martians in their personalities...like nothing I'd ever experienced before and sorta...weird. Weird in a boring sort of way. I don't just mean their observance, as that I enjoyed. I enjoyed WHAT they were and the life they lived...but most of they themselves, monks and brothers, struck me as severely...affected somehow. One, a lot had a sort of flat affect. Odd intonation or monotone speech, awkward posture and eye contact. And they weren't terribly spontaneous or dynamic in their interaction. Very...repressed seeming almost. And I don't mean their celibacy and fasting which I support and feel called to. They just didn't strike me as normal men. It was almost like they were robots. They tried, and I have great affection for them because I can tell they were trying hard to make me feel welcome and comfortable...but they were just such...awkward individuals. If this happened once or twice, I'd pass it off to coincidence. But it seems that almost all of them that I meet are like this. I can even see it in their faces right away now...sort of dead eyes, "scrunched" nervous look...and am disappointed, and indeed my suspicions are confirmed as the days of the visits go on no matter how hard I try to be open minded.

I mean...I know that monasteries are so-called "total institutions"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_institution) but I didn't expect the members to be so...institutionalized. I, perhaps naively, romantically imagined a group of diverse personalities, dynamic, normal. Guys I could be friends with. Instead...they seemed to have no personalities at all, really. I found sort of shy, obsessive, awkward people who were depressing and irritating and boring to be around. And I don't know how I should feel about that. I feel guilty because they tried so hard to engage me (but obviously just didnt have the social skills) and I liked living their life of daily work and study and prayer so much...but I need people. I need friends. I need at least a few people I can talk to openly and vent to and joke around with. And I don't think I heard any laugh or joke at all...or if they did...it was all very forced seeming.

My dad told me a story that when he was a kid, a family had a mentally retarded girl, and everyone said, "Thank God they're Catholic" and that meant really: "they can put her in a convent." And indeed when she grew up that's where she was "put". Now, I know it doesnt work like that anymore...but a lot of these men strike me as people who...need to be taken care of, if that makes sense. Who need to be...watched and fed and given tasks to do in an institutional setting. Who would be "eaten alive out there". And that's fine. The Church is actually very tolerant. We don't reject people just because they're not "typical" or "normal"...She has always recognized the gifts of all types and had an accomodating place for all people, even if they do have some sort of retardation or high functioning autism (which I think a lot of these men probably had based on what I'm describing)...but then where am people like I supposed to go and find people like me? I was never a social butterfly by any stretch of the word...I was never all that active outside of school and always a little shy...but compared to these guys...I seem downright extroverted. And I think an actual butterfly or even a baked potato would be, compared to these guys. They were very sweet but...boy...I just could never live with them forever. I'd have to shut off every brain cell and go insane. It was not the social support network I needed, and what I was told is true: it is fatal to have your main social support network be from outside the religious community. To rely emotionally on outside friends and family. But that's what I'd have to do to stay sane in these places.

Again, I have a lot of affection for them, but partially because many of them were so...pathetic, if you can take all negative connotations out of that word and just take it to mean helpless and quiet and naive. It was like I was in the awkward movie "Napoleon Dynamite" (if you know what I mean) and I didnt know whether to laugh, or cry, or to thank God that such people exist...but also that I'm not one of them.

Meek is one thing, and if I was sort of akward because I was a guest just learning the ropes and getting to know everyone...that makes sense. But many of these guys had been living together for years and still seemed to have no real rapport or interaction or relationship in the sense that I'm used to. So many communities that I've visited seem like this to me! And male religious moreso than female I've met...though maybe that's just because I naturally expect females to be quieter and more introverted and more mild in their personalities.

These were adult men who struck me as still being awkard teenage boys. It was sort of endearing, but also sort of creeped me out. I mean, I always idealized child-like innocence...until I saw it on all these men in their 20's and 30's and 40's...and then I realized that on a grown man...that sort of "child-like"-ness...is very weird and even irritating and off-putting. A "raise ones eyebrow" sort of thing.

I sought them out because I thought a life like that would be a challenge, something I'm not accostumed to but which could help me spiritually grow, become holy, and get to heaven and maybe help others along the way. However, it seemed that to these men it often wasn't a challenge at all. They clearly were the type of people who LIKED routine. Who didn't particularly like interaction or doing stuff. Who liked long periods of silence and repetition because it was almost as if other activity was over-stimulating to them. But I had to wonder: is it really self-denial if it's how you naturally are? Is flagellation really penance for a masochist? Is monastic life really a challenge if they're people who like the institutionalizing aspects.

The only people who seemed more normal, more able to carry on an engaging conversation...were usually the superiors (who in this age of new little orders cropping up everywhere...were often times also the founder). However, they seemed to have a unique dynamic of their own. Several of them seemed obsessive, fastidious, and like they had delusional, though romantic, images about the importance of their foundations. But given the non-responsiveness of the other men...they'd be my only confidante. Which sends up all sorts of red flags. These men were wonderful and kind to me...but it makes me uncomfortable (and indeed it is dangerous) to have only one person to confide in who also happens to be in a position of authority. Now, I dont think any of these holy men would ever abuse that dynamic...but it just sends up unconscious warnings. It isolates one emotionally and makes one dependent on one person, which is dangerous. But indeed all the men in the communities seemed very dependent on the superior, as if they couldnt function without his direction.

It's very frustrating as I've tried several communities, visiting for several weeks even...and they're all so...odd like this. And I don't mean to be mean...but I'm not even sure how much I can trust your advice as unbiased seeing as you all feel called to this sort of thing and so might be similar and see no problem with all this. Though I feel called to this too, or at least I thought I did...so some of you, at least, must be normal. Have you had similar experiences? Why do you think this is? It's so...disillusioning. I expected dynamic, fun, interesting groups of dedicated young men devoted to God and having deep friendships with each other with diverse personalities and intellects. Instead they seem to be largely homogenous groups with no personalities at all. I know religious communities are Institutions and that the self is to be denied for the group...but I never expected the interpersonal atmosphere to feel so much like prison or a mental hospital. I knew to watch out for potential "fruit" problems in seminaries...but I never expected to be confronted with a "vegetable" problem...

Why are they all so catatonic and awkward? And is it wrong for me to feel so repulsed and irritated by them? And is that simply what religious life is like, or are there places more suitable for me?? I know it's a hard question as it's not based on their charism or life (which I have liked) but on them personally...which may be harder for you to advise on. But diocesan seminarians seem to be more normal and well-socialized (though I've found diocesan priesthood has it's own hurdles) but aren't any religious??? Or is that simply the temperment one needs and I dont have it? I worry that this sort of dynamic in orders might be what keeps many men away from the priesthood: they're just weirded out by the whole institutionalized atmosphere of the other members. It might be what drives me away though I feel called very much. And that's a shame, because if there was a house of other guys more normal and socialized like me to be my friends and support me...I'd totally sign up right away. But these young men struck me like...stereotypical old women; anxious, indecisive, scared of new-fangled things, slow moving, and very "square".

Please, dont dismiss this. Please, I dont mean to be insulting. Please, I've prayed over this a lot and need real advice because it has seriously disillusioned my whole valuing of religious and a possible religious vocation.

Edited February 29, 2008 by CruxOfTheMatter

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

You must have been visiting the wrong communities!
Perhaps you need to ask yourself what about these communities attracted you. Sometimes new communities, in their zeal and fervor, mistake religious formation for dehumanization and a cookie cutter mentality.

[alicemary]

Oh do keep looking! If you have been only looking at places that have what you think is the 'ideal' lifestyle, then broaden your search and your horizons. Sometimes we have this thought that I want only religious life where they must wear a habit, must pray in latin, must rise at night to say the Office or whatever. The actuality of these orders may not be what we envision.
If you feel that you can only look at Carmelites for example(and NO, I am not picking on them, just citing an example), you have this romantic ideal of what a Carmelite should be. You will not consider any other order. This just narrows yourself too much.
Go out and explore other orders, other charisms. There are alot of wonderful men and woman who have embraced religious life, and they are dynamic and loving. And by all means, listen to yourself! And never, ever feel that you have to settle, and join because it is the right thing to do..
I have visited places like your describe and believe me, I could not get out of there quick enough.
And keep praying about it!
Alicemary

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Sister Mary Catharine may be right.

Another possibility is that you feel nervous in these places and, having experienced one or two monasteries with peculiar atmospheres, you are reading your own emotions into the people whom you meet. I know a lot of priests, friars, and nuns, and they all have very distinct personalities and interests - just like everybody else.

I don't quite understand why you are associating a convent or a monastery with an 'institution', though. They are not institutions, and giving up the self does not mean giving up your personality - it means putting the needs of others before yourself. I especially don't understand the connection with the mentally retarded girl. Some convents run homes for mentally disabled people who can't manage to live independently, but there is no way that a person with that kind of difficulty could become nun or a monk. Monastic life is very demanding, physically and intellectually. The convent or the monastery is not a hideaway hotel where people go if they feel unable to cope with the outside world. In fact, treating the religious life as an escape route is usually a very good sign that you don't have a religious vocation.

Some of what you say is actually quite offensive to mentally ill and mentally retarded people, especially the use of the word 'vegetable'. I know a lot of people with severe mental health difficulties, and a couple of people with varying degrees of mental retardation. They have personalities and diverse interests. They have fun. They are individuals in their own right. Don't assume that they must be dull and boring and incapable of taking care of themselves, please.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Sister Rose Therese]

I agree with what was said above. There must have been something strange with the community. They are NOT all like that. I think you are always going to have a few special characters but not a whole community of plastic people. Keep looking.

[Gemma]

First of all, welcome to Phatmass.

Secondly, I am going to address some of the points you brought up.

I don't think you're called to contemplative life, but I could be wrong.

Seek out a spiritual director and go on retreat. That's what you're needing at this point in time.

Romantic illusions of the religious life--well, I think that's been pretty much blown away by this experience. Do more research.

About founders: we're considered the "promoter" of the charism by the Church, therefore our charism is the "greatest thing since sliced bread."

Pray for the founder and the community. Pray they get the right ppl sent to them to assist them with their spiritual development. Being a new foundation has its own set of discouragements built in. It's part of the cross, and the faith required to bring the charism to fruition.

Would you please be so kind as to PM me about these new communities? I would like to invite the founders to our founders' forum private yahoo group.

About Aspies (Aspergers high-functioning Autistics):

The richest man in the world is an Aspie. The creator of the Muppets was an Aspie. The designer of the Linux operating system for computers is an Aspie.

Religious life, if formation is done with the handicap in mind, can be a source of sanctity for Aspies. We follow rules, and we embrace routine with joy. We realize the importance of others in our lives, and appreciate their support, but life and its activities can lead to sensory overload, which makes us "freak out." Such is manifested in diverse ways.

I don't think you'd be at home in our (Cloister Outreach's) proposed Hermits of Blessed Herman Contractus and Leonie Martin: [url="http://cloisters.tripod.com/blherman/"]http://cloisters.tripod.com/blherman/[/url]

There have been undiagnosed Aspies canonized. One likely Aspie was St. Benildus of the LaSallians. He started teaching school at age 14. (Aspergers is known as "Little Professor Syndrome").

Yes, they can come across as stoic. People describe me as "serious." And I am, until I get to know someone. Even then, I prefer to imitate St. Joseph, who kept quiet because of his recollection.

But, as I said at the beginning: get a spiritual director, and go on retreat.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma
Coordinator, Cloister Outreach
[url="http://cloisters.tripod.com/"]http://cloisters.tripod.com/[/url]
Aspiring Founder, Cloisterites
[url="http://cloisters.tripod.com/cloisterites/"]http://cloisters.tripod.com/cloisterites/[/url]

[shortnun]

I'll add a bit more of my two cents to the conversation:

I agree 150% with Gemma, if you don't already have a spiritual director, [i]please seek one[/i]. There are many threads that we've had here in the Vocation Station about how to go about finding one.

Also, as Sr. Mary Catherine and others said, I would encourage you to [b]keep looking[/b]. In my own discernment, I have not had experiences exactly like what you described above. However, I've visited communities where I've wanted to fit. In other words, I loved the sisters, the life of work and prayer, but they weren't for me. The fit wasn't there, not matter how hard I tried and wanted it to be there. And, after time, I realize how [b]freeing [/b]this experience was for me. After all, I don't want to be in the place that God doesn't want me to be--He longs for my happiness. At the same time, I haven't found that "right fit" yet and I'm still looking... there aren't any easy answers yet. But the closer I am to God, the more peace I feel.

Hope that helps. And

[CatherineM]

Being female, I haven't been to any male communities, but we do have two active ones in our area. One is a group of Franciscans, and the other I'm not sure what order, but they run a homeless outreach that my husband has dealings with, so they come around to our house a lot. Neither group seem to be as you described, but I think that is because both are groups for men who are older when they entered. They all had more life experiences before making the commitment. That may be something to look at. It could also be that you might be happier as a diocesan priest, or perhaps a missionary one.

[praying4carmel]

I have had the same experience that you have had and I agree that it is discouraging..
Please keep looking and also get a Spiritual Director if you don't already have one. Each community has it's own Spirit, and you will know what's right because it will feel right to you in every way. I know it sounds silly but it's like watching my buyer clients buy a house, they walk in and they KNOW it's the right one. I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit Gave us Feelings for a reason, and you must listen to your feelings and gut to know how you are being led in addition to prayer and listening to the Lord.

I am an "outgoing" type of person who knows that though she has deep respect for the traditional Carmels, through my discernment have found that I will not fit in well there at all. I am discerning to some more "liberal' ones, which seem to fit my personality best. The have structure and silence and prayer but more community involvement even though they are enclosed. Also, the Benedictines in my area have extended me an invitation as well to discern there. So, I have given up trying to control this journey and go where God leads.

Remember too, that this is not a one way street, the community must discern YOU as well. It really is an intimate journey between two parties, 3, if you count the Lord.
We have these Grand Ideas sometimes of what we want and we don't end up there at all, where He puts us is totally different...

My Spiritual Director has told me countless times that if I don't like a place to leave, even if it's before my scheduled time. Don't stay out of guilt etc. Politely Leave. Otherwise you are wasting your time and theirs.

You have gotten very good advice from the above women whom I Respect Deeply.
I will pray for your discernment but, remember this is a Journey....as with all good journeys it will be up and down, dark and light. But you will reach the Place that the Lord Intends for you if you remain Humble and listen and obey His will.

You'll be fine and thank you for your courage to post this.

P4C

[Guest CruxOfTheMatter]

I firstly want to thank all of you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I'm glad to know I'm not alone in these perceptions, and that it's not something wrong with me, and that there are potentially places out there more suitable to me.

I'd also like to thank those who private messaged me sharing their similar experiences and thoughts on the subject, and would encourage you to re-post them here to contribute to the conversation.

[quote]I don't quite understand why you are associating a convent or a monastery with an 'institution', though.[/quote]

Because, technically, sociologically speaking...they are. Of course, the military, boarding schools, and even sleep-away summer camp are also, sociologically speaking, "total institutions". Monasteries and convents are listed right there in the article on the subject. Being an institution isn't necessarily a bad thing...just, they have their own sort of atmosphere and interpersonal psychological dynamic...but it's to varying degrees depending on how strict they are.

[quote]I especially don't understand the connection with the mentally retarded girl. Some convents run homes for mentally disabled people who can't manage to live independently, but there is no way that a person with that kind of difficulty could become nun or a monk.[/quote]

Well, it certainly doesnt happen anymore. But it did in the past and we shouldn't deny it. This girl my dad knew from his neighborhood, who had some sort of high functioning retardation, became a lay sister in a convent in the 1950's. It's not practiced anymore...but people with mild mental handicaps WERE "stashed" in convents in the past. For example, that's clearly the path they tried to put Rosemary Keneddy on until the lobotomy.

The connection is that even today, I was surprised to find, it seemed like certain people with high functioning disabilities who need to be institutionalized...choose or are encouraged to join Religion. And I'm not saying that's bad. God recognizes many gifts in many types of people and certainly they were sincere and devout in their observance and maybe that's the wonderful beauty of it, that though abnormal by the world's standards there is a place for them where they can be God's innocent little lambs and take precedence in the Kingdom.

But at the same time, I could tell, they NEEDED that type of structure. They didnt just embrace it or want it...they NEEDED it psychologically to function. And though I liked their life, I certainly didn't fit in with THEM. I guess I had underestimated the personal aspect, concentrating on the objective elements of their life, not them personally. Assuming that if I liked their life, everything else would fall into place. I know differently now, and I like them all still and pray for them...but it has to be from a distance. I could never stay sane among them on a permanent basis.

[quote]Some of what you say is actually quite offensive to mentally ill and mentally retarded people, especially the use of the word 'vegetable'. I know a lot of people with severe mental health difficulties, and a couple of people with varying degrees of mental retardation. They have personalities and diverse interests. They have fun. They are individuals in their own right. Don't assume that they must be dull and boring and incapable of taking care of themselves, please.[/quote]

No, I don't assume that about all people with mental abnormalities. I too, from my school, knew several mild-to-moderately mentally handicapped or neurologically atypical or abnormal people who were very fun and interesting despite their disabilities or quirks.

It's just that, in the cases I saw in these communities...what I described was true. I'm not generalizing, I'm only talking truthfully about what I saw and felt. These men were boring even though they clearly were trying very hard to engage me. But they just didn't talk much, and when they did the structure of the conversation was very stilted. No spontaneity. There was no back and forth. It was either them asking me mundane grandmotherly questions like, "So, are you sleeping alright? Are you getting enough food?" and me only being able to answer, "Yes." Or me asking them questions about themselves, attempting to get a conversation rolling, and they answering very literally and straightforwardly and then not "connecting" by asking/saying something in-turn unless I asked again. Just...sitting there. Very one-sided that way. Very awkward and dull and not the "script" of interaction I am used to. They obvious were oblivious to many of the subtle cues of social interaction. And their voices, when they did talk...were very flat and robotic with no body language or gesturing. Now, like I said, the superiors were usually different...but they tended to be conversation hogs and very much wanting to be in control of the subject matter and progression of the conversation. Also irritating.

As for "vegetable"...perhaps an exaggeration, but not much. I'm sorry, these are just my honest impressions, but most of these men struck me as almost like...zombies. There would be times, not just in prayer but throughout the day, when they might just stand there or sit there and stare silently and expressionlessly. Very spooky. Very flat, awkard, and honestly depressing.

And I didn't mean to be insulting, but they clearly couldn't take care of themselves. I'm not saying no one can with mental difficulties, but these men in particular seemingly couldn't. They were very dependent on the superior and there were several tragic-comic incidents at a couple of the places where, while he was out on errands, [b][i]I[/i][/b] had to handle a "disaster" (like a bug flying into the room, or a pot boiling over )...me! Even though I was the guest and the youngest...they panicked and had no idea what to do and I had to roll my eyes and take charge. Without explicit direction, they were totally lost. Again...endearing and frustrating at the same time. But they DID strike me as totally ineffectual people in that sense.

[quote]Religious life, if formation is done with the handicap in mind, can be a source of sanctity for Aspies. We follow rules, and we embrace routine with joy. We realize the importance of others in our lives, and appreciate their support, but life and its activities can lead to sensory overload, which makes us "freak out." Such is manifested in diverse ways.[/quote]

Yes, "sensory overload" leading to a "freak out" is one thing I think I noticed and was trying to describe. I don't deny that these were holy men or that religious life can't be good for them. It's just that being among them wasn't the place for me. If there were one or two in a community...fine. But when it was the vast majority...I just didn't fit in and the atmosphere was all very bizarre to me.

[quote]The convent or the monastery is not a hideaway hotel where people go if they feel unable to cope with the outside world.[/quote]

Well it shouldn't be. But based on my experiences I worry that it often is. I'm not saying these people didnt like religious life or feel a true calling. On the contrary they were very devout. But...it definitely suited their temperments, if you see what I mean. That sort of structure was definitely needed by them.

[quote]In fact, treating the religious life as an escape route is usually a very good sign that you don't have a religious vocation.[/quote]

Oh, I agree. And that's why I have sort of doubts/disillusionment about some of this. Were these people just escaping? Going somewhere to have a structured, cared-for, calm, not over-stimulating life? A "regular" life, in the most literal sense of that? And yet they seemed devout and sincere enough...yet it was definitely a place that had not merely spiritual, but also practical and psychological appeal for them...

Edited February 29, 2008 by CruxOfTheMatter

[puellapaschalis]

I'll chime in and echo what everyone else has said above.

I know a couple of mens' communities and all the folks I know there are pretty nutty, to be honest. This may well be on a "lighter" level than what you're describing, but consider that these guys (adults!) live with a whole bunch of others in such a way that you rarely if ever come across in secular life. Living in community rubs all the rough edges off you and the gem underneath can be quite a surprise to everyone (except the Novice Master who's seen it all, of course....).

To second what some others have said: if you truly seek God in the priesthood or religious life, don't give up and don't lose sight of your prize! Find a spiritual director, visit more places...make whatever you do, keep on praying. God has the place and the role just for you out there somewhere, but He can't take you there unless you let Him. So don't lose heart but instead keep on trusting.

(Oh, and to be really frivolous - we're all weird in some way )

[Saint Therese]

Have you discerned with the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal? They have always seemed very well balanced, humanly speaking, to me.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Saint Therese

[Thomist-in-Training]

The Cistercian Monks at Our Lady of Dallas are quite lively. There's a big gap in ages--22-25ish and then 45 on up--but the middle aged ones some of whom are professors are good, and different in personality, and the younger monks are studying--one of them sat on a table once and spun around, as easier than climbing over it in his habit, or walking around. Etc. They keep a high school--they aren't exactly monastic since their "heritage" is from Hungary where the abbeys were forced to be more active--but they are pretty good guys, and not monotone.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='CruxOfTheMatter' post='1471343' date='Feb 29 2008, 03:47 PM']I firstly want to thank all of you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I'm glad to know I'm not alone in these perceptions, and that it's not something wrong with me, and that there are potentially places out there more suitable to me.

I'd also like to thank those who private messaged me sharing their similar experiences and thoughts on the subject, and would encourage you to re-post them here to contribute to the conversation.
Because, technically, sociologically speaking...they are. Of course, the military, boarding schools, and even sleep-away summer camp are also, sociologically speaking, "total institutions". Monasteries and convents are listed right there in the article on the subject. Being an institution isn't necessarily a bad thing...just, they have their own sort of atmosphere and interpersonal psychological dynamic...but it's to varying degrees depending on how strict they are.
Well, it certainly doesnt happen anymore. But it did in the past and we shouldn't deny it. This girl my dad knew from his neighborhood, who had some sort of high functioning retardation, became a lay sister in a convent in the 1950's. It's not practiced anymore...but people with mild mental handicaps WERE "stashed" in convents in the past. For example, that's clearly the path they tried to put Rosemary Keneddy on until the lobotomy.

The connection is that even today, I was surprised to find, it seemed like certain people with high functioning disabilities who need to be institutionalized...choose or are encouraged to join Religion. And I'm not saying that's bad. God recognizes many gifts in many types of people and certainly they were sincere and devout in their observance and maybe that's the wonderful beauty of it, that though abnormal by the world's standards there is a place for them where they can be God's innocent little lambs and take precedence in the Kingdom.

But at the same time, I could tell, they NEEDED that type of structure. They didnt just embrace it or want it...they NEEDED it psychologically to function. And though I liked their life, I certainly didn't fit in with THEM. I guess I had underestimated the personal aspect, concentrating on the objective elements of their life, not them personally. Assuming that if I liked their life, everything else would fall into place. I know differently now, and I like them all still and pray for them...but it has to be from a distance. I could never stay sane among them on a permanent basis.
No, I don't assume that about all people with mental abnormalities. I too, from my school, knew several mild-to-moderately mentally handicapped or neurologically atypical or abnormal people who were very fun and interesting despite their disabilities or quirks.

It's just that, in the cases I saw in these communities...what I described was true. I'm not generalizing, I'm only talking truthfully about what I saw and felt. These men were boring even though they clearly were trying very hard to engage me. But they just didn't talk much, and when they did the structure of the conversation was very stilted. No spontaneity. There was no back and forth. It was either them asking me mundane grandmotherly questions like, "So, are you sleeping alright? Are you getting enough food?" and me only being able to answer, "Yes." Or me asking them questions about themselves, attempting to get a conversation rolling, and they answering very literally and straightforwardly and then not "connecting" by asking/saying something in-turn unless I asked again. Just...sitting there. Very one-sided that way. Very awkward and dull and not the "script" of interaction I am used to. They obvious were oblivious to many of the subtle cues of social interaction. And their voices, when they did talk...were very flat and robotic with no body language or gesturing. Now, like I said, the superiors were usually different...but they tended to be conversation hogs and very much wanting to be in control of the subject matter and progression of the conversation. Also irritating.

As for "vegetable"...perhaps an exaggeration, but not much. I'm sorry, these are just my honest impressions, but most of these men struck me as almost like...zombies. There would be times, not just in prayer but throughout the day, when they might just stand there or sit there and stare silently and expressionlessly. Very spooky. Very flat, awkard, and honestly depressing.

And I didn't mean to be insulting, but they clearly couldn't take care of themselves. I'm not saying no one can with mental difficulties, but these men in particular seemingly couldn't. They were very dependent on the superior and there were several tragic-comic incidents at a couple of the places where, while he was out on errands, [b][i]I[/i][/b] had to handle a "disaster" (like a bug flying into the room, or a pot boiling over )...me! Even though I was the guest and the youngest...they panicked and had no idea what to do and I had to roll my eyes and take charge. Without explicit direction, they were totally lost. Again...endearing and frustrating at the same time. But they DID strike me as totally ineffectual people in that sense.
Yes, "sensory overload" leading to a "freak out" is one thing I think I noticed and was trying to describe. I don't deny that these were holy men or that religious life can't be good for them. It's just that being among them wasn't the place for me. If there were one or two in a community...fine. But when it was the vast majority...I just didn't fit in and the atmosphere was all very bizarre to me.
Well it shouldn't be. But based on my experiences I worry that it often is. I'm not saying these people didnt like religious life or feel a true calling. On the contrary they were very devout. But...it definitely suited their temperments, if you see what I mean. That sort of structure was definitely needed by them.
Oh, I agree. And that's why I have sort of doubts/disillusionment about some of this. Were these people just escaping? Going somewhere to have a structured, cared-for, calm, not over-stimulating life? A "regular" life, in the most literal sense of that? And yet they seemed devout and sincere enough...yet it was definitely a place that had not merely spiritual, but also practical and psychological appeal for them...[/quote]

I remember a test in English once that had simply two questions, one on front - one on back. The question on the front was to explain everything wrong with the book. The second question was to what defect in myself did I attribute the answer I had made on the front.
Get a good spiritual director and see if you have realistic expectations of religious life. The religious I have met in my life have been the sanest down-to-earth quiet people I know. But they operate on a different plane because their gaze is fixed more on eternity.

[Gemma]

The more I pray over this, the more I'm being led to tell you to write down your observations and submit it to their bishop. Don't delay. What's going on is serious--if they are that helpless, then something needs to be done. It's too much for the superior, and if he's doing all the work, they may really be rendered helpless if he drops dead of a heart attack.

Just state the facts as you observed them. Don't make any judgements. You can report, and the bishop will decide what to do. Hopefully, he's truly pastoral, and will care.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma