Dealing With Chivalry

[Thomist-in-Training]

Hello ladies,
Here are examples:
--Chap with whom one was quite chummy the other year, before beginning serious discernment, pays for one's coffee (Coffee bar worker: "I'm supposed to tell you your coffee has been taken care of")
--Chap who is most likely to be a monk offers to drive 1/2 hour there and 1/2 hour back so I can drop the car off at my parents' and still study tonight

Should I have refused the coffee?

I would really like to take up the second chap's offer, actually, but I want to avoid becoming too familiar, or appearing to become too familiar. We made brunch together this morning (I did try to invite other people but no one else was around.)

I'm sure this sort of thing comes up for you all too? How do you deal with it? I don't have a problem with people holding doors for me, or doing the sort of thing they would do for every girl, but if it's particular chivalry it gets more awkward.

[jkaands]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' post='1468228' date='Feb 24 2008, 03:57 PM']Hello ladies,
Here are examples:
--Chap with whom one was quite chummy the other year, before beginning serious discernment, pays for one's coffee (Coffee bar worker: "I'm supposed to tell you your coffee has been taken care of")
--Chap who is most likely to be a monk offers to drive 1/2 hour there and 1/2 hour back so I can drop the car off at my parents' and still study tonight

Should I have refused the coffee?

I would really like to take up the second chap's offer, actually, but I want to avoid becoming too familiar, or appearing to become too familiar. We made brunch together this morning (I did try to invite other people but no one else was around.)

I'm sure this sort of thing comes up for you all too? How do you deal with it? I don't have a problem with people holding doors for me, or doing the sort of thing they would do for every girl, but if it's particular chivalry it gets more awkward.[/quote]

First of all, you sound like a very nice girl who is very popular!

I wouldn't read too much into these kind gestures, and would accept graciously any and all casual offers.

If anything starts to trend towards the more serious, you'll see it instantly.

[puellapaschalis]

I can only echo what jkaands said.

[Veritas]

+

A lot depends on the level of formation and maturity these men have. Guard your heart and theirs -and pay attention to how they look at you! You should only be spending one-on-one time with seminarians or novices for a very unusual reason. The coffee seems like a perfectly fine gesture.

Edited February 25, 2008 by Veritas

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1468459' date='Feb 24 2008, 09:47 PM']You should only be spending one-on-one time with seminarians or novices for a very unusual reason.[/quote]

sadly, it's true. but it's for the best. even with discernment, i avoid it and i know sometimes others "help".

i say, if you gotta even question it, then avoid it. if you find yourself praying about it a lot, then just avoid it. better safe than sorry. you won't be intentionally hurting anyone. better to sacrifice and let God handle it than cause any potential harm. discernment is dealing with some heavy duty life/God/spiritual warfare kind of stuff.

[jkaands]

I don't think that Tommy is referring to seminarians or novices.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

If I were you, I would accept all gestures of kindness from any friend (male or female) without trying to read so much into them. I do set limits on the types of favours I receive from different people, but these limits are based on my closeness to the person in question rather than fear of sending out the wrong messages. For example, I would let my best friend stay up all night to take care of me when I was sick if she offered, but I wouldn't allow a casual acquaintance to make the same offer. I don't think that you can ever give the wrong impression by accepting simple acts of generosity, and displaying them yourself.

[stlmom]

I think CA said it best.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1468698' date='Feb 25 2008, 01:29 PM']If I were you, I would accept all gestures of kindness from any friend (male or female) without trying to read so much into them. I do set limits on the types of favours I receive from different people, but these limits are based on my closeness to the person in question rather than fear of sending out the wrong messages. For example, I would let my best friend stay up all night to take care of me when I was sick if she offered, but I wouldn't allow a casual acquaintance to make the same offer. I don't think that you can ever give the wrong impression by accepting simple acts of generosity, and displaying them yourself.[/quote]

i believe you say this with all sincerity and i used to think the same, but now i've been thinking of taking it a step further.

even your best friend can grow an attraction to you. this is nothing you can control if you choose to do things that can foster it, no matter how innocent. so it doesn't just come down to guarding your heart, but guarding the hearts of others, especially those you are about.

you can give the wrong impression, even if the impression is perfectly innocent between the two of you, it can cause scandal to others, especially if you are in a position of leadership. i once had this problem when deciding whether or not to share a hotel room with a friend. perfectly innocent, but if others who didn't know us well heard of this, it could cause scandal.

in my college introduction to psychology book, it talks about factors related to attraction. the same goes with social psychology as well as interpersonal communication:
1. proximity/frequency - the closer you are, the more time you spend together. as this increases, chances of attraction increases.
2. appearance - for non-Catholics, it's probably more important, but imagine a devout Catholic - do they not appear more attractive over time?
3. similarity - just being Catholic..

[url="http://www.google.com/search?q=psychology+attraction+proximity"]http://www.google.com/search?q=psychology+...ction+proximity[/url]

interesting study about college students in dorms [url="http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/psychology/attraction.shtml"]http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/psychology/attraction.shtml[/url]


===========


hope you don't take this personally. i've learned over the years that when you think you're comfortable, God asks you to take it to the next level. He wants you to be holy and to strive to grow holier every day. being Catholic isn't easy, but it's the truth.

Edited February 28, 2008 by johnnydigit

[puellapaschalis]

However, it takes two to tango. I can remember having a crush on a priest friend of mine - a kind of cross between what normally passes as a "crush" amongst the young (I was a teenager at the time) and the "crushes" that you'd find at a girls' boarding school, that is, more of admiration and imitation rather than anything "romantic".
He was always kind, open and listening. Nothing was too silly to talk to him about, and though he was often busy (who isn't?) when I needed to talk, he was there.
After a short while, however, I recognised it for what it was becoming and eventually managed to break off the attraction (the friendship is there to this day).
Now - did he do anything untoward in all of that? Sometimes an attachment is going to start no matter what one does. Keeping a guard on one's behaviour (and especially the eyes, as stuffy and old-fashioned as that might sound) can help, but I suspect that regular prayer for the other is going to be more effective in helping people discover and be faithful to their vocation than scruples over going for coffee.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1470481' date='Feb 28 2008, 07:27 AM']even your best friend can grow an attraction to you. this is nothing you can control if you choose to do things that can foster it, no matter how innocent. so it doesn't just come down to guarding your heart, but guarding the hearts of others, especially those you are about.[/quote]

I grew up in a society that adhered to your viewpoint very strictly. Most school students are segregated once the first couple of years are over, the restaurants and cafes are divided into 'family areas' (unmarried women can eat here too) and areas for single men, there are optional screens that you can pull round your table even in the family areas, men and women sit in different sections on public transport, and there is a special women-only departure lounge in the airport.

The result of these extremely strict rules? People still get attracted to other people. In fact, you have hordes of Saudi teenage boys wandering around the Rashid Mall with their phone numbers written down on wadded-up pieces of paper, ready to toss at any girl who looks responsive. The reaction of the authorities is to tighten the level of segregation. Unmarried boys and girls are tossing their phone numbers to each other in McDonald's? Quick, get screens round those tables!

This isn't modesty. It doesn't make any sense. It is quite natural for human beings to get attracted to other human beings. It even happens to priests and nuns. Unless we are going to make sure that a nun or a religious sister is never allowed to exchange more than two words with a man (and only then through a special grille), or insist that female congregants sit well out of the priest's sight and never get the chance to talk to him alone, all of us - even people in serious discernment - are going to have to learn healthy ways of dealing with attraction. Refusing to allow a male friend to pay for your coffee lest he suddenly drop to his knees and propose marriage or else be overcome with uncontrollable lust is not a healthy way of doing that.

In short: if I can't be friends with somebody of the opposite sex without panicking about Attraction with a capital A, it's doubtful whether I'm fit to be a nun at all.

Edited February 28, 2008 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1470525' date='Feb 28 2008, 02:25 AM']Keeping a guard on one's behaviour (and especially the eyes, as stuffy and old-fashioned as that might sound) can help, but I suspect that regular prayer for the other is going to be more effective in helping people discover and be faithful to their vocation than scruples over going for coffee.[/quote]

why not both? if you can..

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1470544' date='Feb 28 2008, 06:15 AM']Refusing to allow a male friend to pay for your coffee lest he suddenly drop to his knees and propose marriage or else be overcome with uncontrollable lust is not a healthy way of doing that.[/quote]

actually i was referring more to having coffee alone with a male friend. that can lead to long one-on-one phone conversations, which isn't the most prudent for a discerner. young people often and easily grow feelings over the phone.

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1470544' date='Feb 28 2008, 06:15 AM']In short: if I can't be friends with somebody of the opposite sex without panicking about Attraction with a capital A, it's doubtful whether I'm fit to be a nun at all.[/quote]

couldn't you say the same about the strictness of cloisters? it's not about whether or not you can handle it, it's about the occasion for sin and the safety of all. better safe than sorry. everyone here is different of course, but it's good to raise awareness of the matter, discerning or not.


i'm sorry that your culture is so strict, but i admire it for its intentions. i hope you can meditate on it so you can appreciate what you have, and figure out ways that would suit you best - omit what's bad, but keep what is good. unfortunately our American culture is the complete opposite. it seems in order to fight it, i have to go in the opposite direction with even more fervor, zeal, and determination. being lukewarm just isn't enough around here.. people just don't get it, and it takes a little more to get through to them and make a good example..

[puellapaschalis]

I'm sure Sr. Mary Catherine could talk about this much better, but the impression I gained was that the cloister was less about being distracted by members of the opposite sex (Heaven help you even more if you suffer from same-sex attraction) and more about having been given a separate, dedicated, hidden space in which those who are called to it can live out their separate, dedicated, hidden lives. When I was living my aspirancy it wasn't just men who couldn't "just stroll in" - [i]no-one[/i] can "just stroll in".

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1470660' date='Feb 28 2008, 07:34 PM']actually i was referring more to having coffee alone with a male friend. that can lead to long one-on-one phone conversations, which isn't the most prudent for a discerner. young people often and easily grow feelings over the phone.[/quote]

Walking around the Rashid Mall or the Jeddah Corniche covered from head to toe in traditional Saudi Muslim garb can also lead to long one-on-one phone conversations. In fact, it sometimes does lead to that - but it doesn't [i]have[/i] to. It's hardly an inevitable consequence of going out for a walk and perhaps encountering a girl or guy about your age who slips you their phone number. The slippery slope argument doesn't work in every case.

[quote]couldn't you say the same about the strictness of cloisters? it's not about whether or not you can handle it, it's about the occasion for sin and the safety of all. better safe than sorry. everyone here is different of course, but it's good to raise awareness of the matter, discerning or not.[/quote]

PP has already described the purpose of the cloister, so I needn't add much to what she has written. It's enough to say that Saudi gender segregation has nothing to do with the reasons for monastic enclosure. St Teresa of Avila, who returned her Carmelites to strict enclosure, had several very close male friends (especially Peter of Alcantara and Gracian) and we know that she enjoyed long and affectionate correspondences with these men. The letters have been published. These friendships in no way compromised her vocation as a nun.

[quote]i'm sorry that your culture is so strict, but i admire it for its intentions. i hope you can meditate on it so you can appreciate what you have, and figure out ways that would suit you best - omit what's bad, but keep what is good.[/quote]

There are lots of good things about Saudi culture. The strictness of the segregation isn't one of them.