Indulgences And The 700 Club Etc.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1469118' date='Feb 26 2008, 09:50 AM']But the story always goes that the Catholic Church is making big money off the poor through indulgences and stipends and anullments. Yet I don't see it in the lives of the preists and bishops.[/quote]

What about in Latin America?

[BG45]

Just an observation; kinda silly of one, but goes to show the differences. If I turn on EWTN I see rather spartan sets. If I turn on TBN I see huge gaudy gold throne chairs, huge stages, The whole indulgences issue kinda came to mind once flipping between the two, because of the indulgences Luther protested funding the building of a magnificent structure (St. Peter's.). Almost ironic the Protestant channel has more "bling" than the Catholic one then.

Question on indulgences as people go on about Purgatory? I thought that indulgences were relief in a temporal sense because in the old days, penance was harsher? Such as so many days only bread and water for adultery and such; and that an indulgence granted so many days off of that (besides Feast Days). Is that the case with indulgences?

Thanks in advance, just my small look into the matter and catching some segments of Web of Faith.

[Paddington]

[quote name='BG45' post='1470168' date='Feb 27 2008, 09:35 PM']Question on indulgences as people go on about Purgatory? I thought that indulgences were relief in a temporal sense because in the old days, penance was harsher? Such as so many days only bread and water for adultery and such; and that an indulgence granted so many days off of that (besides Feast Days). Is that the case with indulgences?[/quote]

I remember Scott Hahn saying exactly that. EDIT: But, not in a way that you had to have committed certain sins to go for the indulgence.

BTW, I agree with you about TBN's "bling."

Edited February 28, 2008 by Paddington

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='BG45' post='1470168' date='Feb 27 2008, 07:05 PM']Just an observation; kinda silly of one, but goes to show the differences. If I turn on EWTN I see rather spartan sets. If I turn on TBN I see huge gaudy gold throne chairs, huge stages, The whole indulgences issue kinda came to mind once flipping between the two, because of the indulgences Luther protested funding the building of a magnificent structure (St. Peter's.). Almost ironic the Protestant channel has more "bling" than the Catholic one then.[/quote]

Yes, it is interesting, but we all know that most Protestants and their churches look more like the EWTN set than TBN's.

[quote name='BG45' post='1470168' date='Feb 27 2008, 07:05 PM']Question on indulgences as people go on about Purgatory? I thought that indulgences were relief in a temporal sense because in the old days, penance was harsher? Such as so many days only bread and water for adultery and such; and that an indulgence granted so many days off of that (besides Feast Days). Is that the case with indulgences?[/quote]

Yes, I believe that's the idea. I think the indulgence can also be applied in the spiritual sense. Honestly, I don't understand indulgences that well... however they work, God works it out in the end. I believe in them, obviously, but gaining an indulgence never has been high on my priority list. After all, there is that little fine print that you only receive the indulgence inasmuch you are detached from sin in your heart. Knowing that I have some very strong attachments, seems my time is better spent in Confession, receiving the Eucharist, praying, and reading Scripture.

My issue is partly because indulgences are often promoted to appeal to our selfish nature by emphasizing what you get. I won't claim not to be a selfish person, but trying to get my 40 acres doesn't concern me much. /

[BG45]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1470198' date='Feb 27 2008, 08:01 PM']I remember Scott Hahn saying exactly that. EDIT: But, not in a way that you had to have committed certain sins to go for the indulgence.

BTW, I agree with you about TBN's "bling."[/quote]

Probably where I heard it then. If I had to guess at least. And thanks...I cannot watch TBN because of it for the most part. I think the only thing I've ever watched on the network without cringing was a film called "Another Day With a Perfect Stranger" or something like that.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1470288' date='Feb 27 2008, 09:51 PM']Yes, it is interesting, but we all know that most Protestants and their churches look more like the EWTN set than TBN's.[/quote]

Agreed, almost every church I've been in would bear more resemblance to EWTN's sets. In fact, I can think of one off the top of my head that bore more resemblance to TBN; and it's quite ridiculed in the community as many have pointed out in this thread, regarding opulence often being scorned amongst Protestant churches. On a side note: I will never go back there again, nothing can ever be paid enough for me to even consider it.


[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1470288' date='Feb 27 2008, 09:51 PM']Yes, I believe that's the idea. I think the indulgence can also be applied in the spiritual sense. Honestly, I don't understand indulgences that well... however they work, God works it out in the end. I believe in them, obviously, but gaining an indulgence never has been high on my priority list. After all, there is that little fine print that you only receive the indulgence inasmuch you are detached from sin in your heart. Knowing that I have some very strong attachments, seems my time is better spent in Confession, receiving the Eucharist, praying, and reading Scripture.

My issue is partly because indulgences are often promoted to appeal to our selfish nature by emphasizing what you get. I won't claim not to be a selfish person, but trying to get my 40 acres doesn't concern me much. /[/quote]

I agree that it might appeal to selfish nature, and I'd heard about the fine print before. During Luther's time a lot of German parishes were, as pointed out early in the thread, selling them like candy without really mentioning that fine print. If one would follow the "fine print" as it were, I'd see no fault in the practice, because, much as you said, I trust in God to work such things out in the end, not my own fallible understandings.

[prose]

I have always understood indulgences this way:

They are a way of making your soul more pure on earth. The act that grants one an indulgence in some way spiritually purifies a person, and therefor there is less time spent in purgatory (less purification needed). For instance, if you go to the Vatican for confession and then pray certain prayers, you are granted I believe a partial indulgence. It is not just that you have done the acts that "Took some time off" as you will, but the graces have purified you in that much more of a powerful way.

That is why full, plenary indulgences are difficult (if not impossible) to get. Because you would have to be soooo open to the graces of the act that you allow God to purify you in that moment. That is why people say "you must have no earthly attachments to achieve a full indulgence".

Now, I am not an expert on this, so someone can correct me if I am way off base, but this is how I understood the process.

Edited February 28, 2008 by prose

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='prose' post='1470630' date='Feb 28 2008, 01:32 PM']They are a way of making your soul more pure on earth. The act that grants one an indulgence in some way spiritually purifies a person, and therefor there is less time spent in purgatory (less purification needed).[/quote]

We shouldn't think of it so much in terms of time, simply being purified. The idea of time is easier for us to imagine because it's what we know in this life... you do something wrong and you get time out, time in detention, time in jail, etc. But purgatory is a purification of the heart. It's really nothing more than Christ eliminating all our detachments to this world and sin so that we are pure in Heaven. I think we talk about it more than we should... I think all of four paragraphs in the Catechism discuss purgatory.

[thessalonian]

Prose,

I think what you have said is good. One thing to remember in all of this is that it is said that in purgatory we can do nothing for ourselves, wheras here we can. Therefore when we do these things in this life it affects our time in purgatory more than the time it takes to purify in purgatory. Does that make sense. i.e. 20 minutes of praying (relatively speaking because as LF indicated purgatory isn't time but it is a crude way of thinking about it) might elimanate 40 minutes of purgatory. Again, only using time as a crude representation. Actually I think purgatory is more like levels. One in some fashion ascends toward God. Again, there probably isn't ascending and descending but another way of looking at it perhaps.