Venerating

[Brother Adam]

Its been a while since I've posted on a topic here, and since phatcatholic seems like he wants to talk Catholicism, I'm all for it.

Venerating is still one of those few things that is doctrinally in the shadows for me.

Let's say I'm 6 years old (my wife sometimes thinks I am) and I'm walking down the street with you (and you are your age) and we stop in a Catholic Church on our way to...umm.....Steak and Shake. I see people venerating and say "what are they doing?"

How would you explain venerating to me, as a young child?

or in other words: What is venerating? What do people venerate? Why? Don't confuse me! :huh:

[dUSt]

Venerate means to honor, or show respect towards. Catholics may venerate Mary, saints, relics, etc. They do it to honor or show respect for the things that they are venerating.

Americans venerate the American flag during the Star Spangled Banner. You may use that analogy if you were explaining it to a child.

Do you have a question about venerating certain things?

[phatcatholic]

well, first off, i want to say that i didn't mean to start anything that u don't want to get into. i'm not trying to cause trouble or anything. i was just curious i guess.

that said, whenever one talks of "venerating" one must also include what is being venerated. i can't really describe a person in a church just venerating, b/c i don't know the object of the veneration. once i have this bit of info, the veneration in question can be explained.

lets say for example, that you and i walk into the cathedral and see any old lady venerating Mary. this we can explain. in my Catholic Dictionary, "Veneration of Saints" is described as:

Devotion to the saints, who are invoked in recognition of their presence before God and thus capable of intercession on behalf of the living and those suffering purgatory; they are particularly honored as patron saints because of their example in this life. The OT sentiment of 2 Mc 15:12, that the holy ones pray for the community, re-echoes in Heb 12:1, where the holy people of the OT are called a "cloud of witnesses." Rooted in the Pauline doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ, the earliest testimony of such veneration is the reverence accorded to the martyrs of the early Church. Since the fourth century, the veneration of saints has expanded to include all God's holy ones who enjoy the beatific vision and continue to intercede on our behalf; in their diversity, the saints offer an inexhaustible source of imitation and inspiration to Christians. The reverence shown the saints, called dulia, must be distinguished from latria, the worship and adoration given to God alone. See also CCC 1090

from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), Paragraph 1090, we read:

1090 "In the earthly liturgy we share in a foretaste of that heavenly liturgy which is celebrated in the Holy City of Jerusalem toward which we journey as pilgrims, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God, Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle. With all the warriors of the heavenly army we sing a hymn of glory to the Lord; venerating the memory of the saints, we hope for some part and fellowship with them; we eagerly await the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ, until he, our life, shall appear and we too will appear with him in glory." 13

so, if we walk in and see an old lady venerating Mary, then she could be

--on her knees praying the rosary, or

--lighting a candle in front of a statue of Mary as she (the old woman) thinks of an intention for which she is asking Mary to pray to our Lord, or

--saying the "Hail Mary" prayer outloud, or

--saying any prayer to Mary for intercession, and in any manner or posture that is conducive to prayer and reflection for that person (sitting, standing, kneeling, hands in the air, hands covering the face, hands folded, etc....)

does this answer your question? holla back....

pax christi,

phatcatholic

Edited February 19, 2004 by phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

Why not just say "We honor and respect Mary" instead of "we venerate Mary"? It would save me from a lotta headaches from those who claim "Catholics worship Mary". Heck right now I'm debating someone with a doctoral degree in theology that claims the Passion movie shows how Catholics believe Mary really endured the suffering of the cross. You have no idea how hard your making it on me!

Do Catholics ask for intercession from a relic? (I expect you will say no). How would you "venerate" a relic?

[phatcatholic]

Why not just say "We honor and respect Mary" instead of "we venerate Mary"? It would save me from a lotta headaches from those who claim "Catholics worship Mary".

we could very well say "honor and respect" instead of "venerate" for the two are interchangeable. however, catholics are all about encapsulating an entire belief into one word. occasionally though, what we gain in brevity we lose in translation. for catholics at least, such words are helpful b/c instead of explaining an entire belief every time you want to talk about it, u can just use the word. similar words include transubstantiation, incarnation, assumption, etc....

although this may seem confusing to non-catholics at first, its really not very hard to look up the word and find out with certainty what it means. many non-catholics seem content to rely on their own assumptions of what a word means, instead of finding out the truth of the matter. but i digress....

Heck right now I'm debating someone with a doctoral degree in theology that claims the Passion movie shows how Catholics believe Mary really endured the suffering of the cross. You have no idea how hard your making it on me!

i know this is slightly off topic, but i wanted to comment on this as well. actually, to a degree you are both right. in one sense, whenever anyone suffers in the name of the Lord, that person unites their sufferings to the sufferings of the cross. i say Mary united her sufferings to the cross in a way that no other creature is able to. at the same time though, no catholic would say that Mary atoned for all man's sin, or anything crazy like that.

Do Catholics ask for intercession from a relic? (I expect you will say no). How would you "venerate" a relic?

the act of intercession is only directly implied when venerating a saint. however, when a catholic venerates a relic, this often leads to asking a saint for intercession b/c the relic reminds the catholic of the saint to whom the relic belongs. i believe i am correct in saying that relics act much like statues of a saint in that they remind us of the saint and that saint's exemplary life. recalling that saints life then gives us hope that we can overcome similar sufferings and that heaven is waiting if we follow the saint's example. also, relics and statues remind us that their is indeed a cloud of witnesses in heaven who are praying to God that more perfect prayer on our behalf. this is encouraging as well.

i hope this helps (and please, someone correct me if i have spoken in error).

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[Hananiah]

Why not just say "We honor and respect Mary" instead of "we venerate Mary"?

We like using eald terms.

Heck right now I'm debating someone with a doctoral degree in theology that claims the Passion movie shows how Catholics believe Mary really endured the suffering of the cross.

Well, Gibson did draw some inspiration from the visions of Ven. Anne Catherine Emmerich, so this doesn't surprise me.

Catholics don't believe Mary's death had redemptive efficacy as did the death of Christ, however we do believe that she participated in her Son's sufferings in a unique way. Whereas all Christians realize Phillipians 3:10 to some extent, Mary did so perfectly.

Do Catholics ask for intercession from a relic? (I expect you will say no). How would you "venerate" a relic?

You expect correctly. Statues are inanimate. However, they can be instrumental if God so desires. I will paste a section of my website here, from my rebuttal to Mary Ann Collins' freedomfromcatholicism website:

"God has a precedent of effecting miracles through the instrumentation of statues. (I'm beginning to wonder whether Mrs. Collins has actually read the Bible.)

"Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived" (Numbers 21:8-9).

Holy Scripture is filled with such examples of the proper use of images and relics. In Acts 19:11-12 people are healed by Paul's handkerchiefs and aprons; in 2 Kings 13:20-21, by Elisha's bones; in Acts 5:15-16, by Peter's shadow. Tradition also witnesses to the veneration of relics in the early Church.

"However, when the centurion saw that the Jews were spoiling for a quarrel, he had the body [of Polycarp, a bishop who had recently been martyred] fetched out publicly, as is their usage, and burnt. So, after all, we did gather up his bones - more precious to us than jewels, and finer than pure gold - and we laid them to rest in a spot suitable for the purpose. There we shall assemble, as occasion allows, with glad rejoicings; and with the Lord's permission we shall celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom."

(Evarestus, The Martyrdom of Polycarp, Ch. 18, in Early Christian Writings, Penguin Books, 1968)"

[phatcatholic]

bro adam,

also, you may wish to consult the Communion of Saints entry in the apologetics board, as well as the following articles about relics:

--Bilbo, Frodo, and Relics

--Relics

--Sacramentalism

--Devotion to Relics

--Relics

--What Are Relics?

--Why Do We Venerate Relics?

--Keeping in Touch with the Saints

i hope this helps.......pax christi,

phatcatholic

[mulls]

for as much as I now know about Catholicism, I'm afraid I will never understand it.

[cmotherofpirl]

Anything you want to discuss mulls is fine. Which particular part of the veneration statues or relics needs further explanation? Or is it the theology behind it?

[mulls]

i know the facts, reasons, explanations, etc.

but it just won't click for me as to being the right thing to do, as far as this topic goes and others as well.

i don't want to offend and i don't want to take over this thread either.

[Jake Huether]

Mulls,

It's as simple as the reason you have a family photo album. It's as simple as the fact that maybe cigar smoke reminds you of your grandfather. Or why you can't convince yourself to get rid of the old bike your dad got you. Believe it or not, when you look at those photos, when you reminisce as you smell the smoke, or as you fingure the frame of the old bike, you are really venerating the people that those objects recall for you.

The thing is, the regular "human" family goes back only a few centuries. It is very unlikely you have any "reminders" of your great-great-grandfather. But the Catholic family, the Church, goes back 2000 years. Even moreso when you count their ancestors, the Jewish people. It spans over the earth! So that reminders, photo's and cigars if you will, are much more NEEDED. They are the glue that bonds us physical beings to those who have gone before us.

Veneration is quite the norm. It is unfortunate that the anti-Catholic philosophy has turned things around. Veneration, is a God given trait of humanity. It is expressed in our families. Why should it not be expressed in our ultimate family, the Body of Christ?

[KennC]

... you are really venerating the people that those objects recall for you.

My youngest daughter never knew her grandmother, she died years before she was born but Sam has her watch and a picture of her in her jewelery box. This watch is part of her, it's a connection she treasures with her grandmother.

[dUSt]

Like Jake said, and this analogy has been used hundreds of times--but it is the best analogy to use--why do people have photos of family members?

Every time you look at a photo hanging on the wall of a deceased family member, and that brings back memories and feelings, you're doing the exact same thing a Catholic does when looking at a picture/statue/relic.

Mulls--with this in mind, it would make more sense to me to have someone explain why it is wrong to do what Catholics do.

Because we are putting the relic before God? No, we don't.

Because it takes the focus off God? No, it magnifies it.

Because it detracts from the love we have for God? No, it enhances it.

Because we worship the items? Of course not--you know this.

So, what is the legitimate objection?

[KennC]

Mulls--with this in mind, it would make more sense to me to have someone explain why it is wrong to do what Catholics do.

.. just popped back to address a similar point, it's been my observation that for a OSAS crowd these are very skittish folks almost to the point of superstition, the not stepping on a crack thing. Catholics seem far more secure in their Walk and Faith.

[Dave]

Why not just say "We honor and respect Mary" instead of "we venerate Mary"? It would save me from a lotta headaches from those who claim "Catholics worship Mary".

Actually, I've never heard anybody -- Catholic or Protestant -- say they venerate God. Only that they worship Him. :P