Laudate_Dominum Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 (edited) Ok, this is weird but I was talking to this guy once, he said he was catholic but he was at the very least a very liberal catholic, but I would say a very clear example of a modernist heretic. Anyway, he said that he doesn't believe the miracles in the Bible because they go against reason. Then he threw in my face the Church's teaching about faith not contradicting reason. Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth. -- Dei Filius The only thing I could think to say at the time (it was a heated discussion) was that his position is rationalism and excludes faith entirely whereas the Catholic position is faith seeking understanding, not faith negated by a positivistic concept of reason. I also tried to defend the fact that miracles are reasonable given the fact of God's power. Also in light of the Church's teachings (Vatican I, Pius IX against modernists, Fides et Ratio, etc) his position is heretical. What would you say against someone like this? Thanks. Edited February 18, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IXpenguin21 Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 yeah um... that quote is from the CCC... Para.159: "Faith and science: ‘Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth' (Dei Filius 4; DS 3017). Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are' (GS 36§1)." he left out the part that i made bold that clears up the matter of faith vs reason/science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholish Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Certainly Faith and Reason can never contradict, but the problem with your friend was his statement that miracles are not rational or some how go against reason. It is that false premise which causes him the problem. Miracles are entirely reasonalbe, they are just unnatural, I think that he was confusing the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 LaudDom, i think u've already said to him what i can think to say. miracles ARE reasonable b/c they come from God, and God can do anything. plus, if he doesn't believe in miracles, you may want to remind him that his christianity depends on him beleiving them. afterall, the incarnation is a miracle, w/o which no one can be saved. the real presence is a miracle, w/o which John 6 is rubbish. heck, the fact that a bunch of guys were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the Bible is a miracle, w/o which the entire Bible is rubbish and very few people know God. the logical implications of his thinking are dangerous. i hope this helps......pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 19, 2004 Author Share Posted February 19, 2004 LaudDom, i think u've already said to him what i can think to say. miracles ARE reasonable b/c they come from God, and God can do anything. plus, if he doesn't believe in miracles, you may want to remind him that his christianity depends on him beleiving them. afterall, the incarnation is a miracle, w/o which no one can be saved. the real presence is a miracle, w/o which John 6 is rubbish. heck, the fact that a bunch of guys were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the Bible is a miracle, w/o which the entire Bible is rubbish and very few people know God. the logical implications of his thinking are dangerous. i hope this helps......pax christi, phatcatholic yes, that is how I see it too. That person is in most grevious error! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 What would you say against someone like this? Well, you could point out the simple fact that if he is willing to admit belief in an omnipotent creator God, he has no rational reason to exclude miracles from the realm of possibility. You could also give him a book by Joan Carrol Cruz, who documents evidence for miracles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 19, 2004 Author Share Posted February 19, 2004 Well, you could point out the simple fact that if he is willing to admit belief in an omnipotent creator God, he has no rational reason to exclude miracles from the realm of possibility. You could also give him a book by Joan Carrol Cruz, who documents evidence for miracles. Thank you! I don't talk to this guy anymore but he was a real tough case. He only reads heretical, liberal type stuff so he has quite a vast variety of strange ideas about the faith. I bought some of these books because I wanted to be able to understand where he was coming from more and understand the underpinnings. It's pretty much plain old modernism as defined by Pius IX. It puts a secular ideology above the faith and judges the world and faith based on these criteria rather than having the faith as your foundation and seeing the world through Catholic eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Along the lines of what Hananiah wrote... If I were confronted by a Catholic who believed in "explain away the miracles" theology, my line of discussion would be: 1) Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary? 2) Do you believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead? 1 Corinthians 15:14-19 -- "If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied. The mysteries of the Faith cannot be explained by reason alone. The fact that God took the form of a man. The fact that he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. The fact that he becomes present to us in the Eucharist at the mass. If he can believe these miracles, I think the other miracles (multiplying of the fish and the loaves, healing, raising Lazarus from the dead, etc) are fairly easy to believe. If not, the words of St. Paul to the Corinthians are pretty direct. God bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Faith AND Reason http://ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2FIDES.HTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 thanks people. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I thought St. Bonaventure took care of this in the 13th century! If you say you believe in faith above reason. And then say you do not believe in miracles because they go against reason. You have just placed Reason above Faith. And you're in error. Wow, plus if this guy actually valued reason, there is NO WAY he'd be reading all those liberal books. Reason+Liberal Catholicism= Black Holes/end of the world/explosions.... They don't go together, if they did I think the earth would implode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 (edited) LaudDom, i think you will find these to be a good read: --Rational Justification of the Act of Faith --Alpha and Omega: Reconciling Science and Faith pax christi, phatcatholic Edited February 20, 2004 by phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 I thought St. Bonaventure took care of this in the 13th century! If you say you believe in faith above reason. And then say you do not believe in miracles because they go against reason. You have just placed Reason above Faith. And you're in error. Wow, plus if this guy actually valued reason, there is NO WAY he'd be reading all those liberal books. Reason+Liberal Catholicism= Black Holes/end of the world/explosions.... They don't go together, if they did I think the earth would implode. Thanks GC! St. Bonaventure is actually my favorite theologian! Thanks you guys for all your great feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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