Getting Fed, Emotions, Etc.

[Dave]

In the Forgiven Former Seminarian thread, Silverbug talked about his faith journey. But now Phatcatholic and Foundsheep say we need to stick to one topic per thread. So I think I'll let this thread be the topic of getting fed.

Dave-

That's great that the Lord is making an impact on your life! But you didn't need to leave the Catholic Church in order for that to happen.

You love going to church services, interacting, and being involved. Well again, that's great, but I get the impression your basing things on feelings. Sometimes in worshipping the Lord we may not exactly FEEL joy. There are times when most of us go through dry spells. Yet that doesn't mean that if we don't feel joy there's something wrong with us.

I'm sorry you felt your childhood was like that. You said you hadn't received any instruction as to the mysteries behind the rituals. And you said you investigated. But did you really look in the right places? In other words, did you read orthodox Catholic apologetics materials, or did you read what non-Catholics say about the Church? Non-Catholic publications are often biased about the Church, and the info they print is often mistakes, misunderstandings, or outright lies.

=====================================================

Now when i began to get back into the Catholic Church, I did it with my whole heart and mind--i wasnt holding back, I jumped in with both feet--but found it lacking. I realize there may be dry spells , but i wasnt being spiritually fed. the more i learned the more i questioned. I sought the advice of clergy, my parents, and Catholic apologetic material. I was led by the Spirit to keep searching.

You say you weren't spiritually fed. That's just another way of saying you didn't get anything out of it. Well then, that must mean you didn't put anything INTO it. Or at least, you put the wrong things into it. You seemed to want to get an emotional high out of Mass. It doesn't work that way. Worshiping God has NEVER been based on emotions. Besides, the Mass is the re-presentation of Jesus' sacrifice on Calvary. If you can't get anything out of that, then you really need to study and meditate on what the Mass is and what it means. You said the Spirit led you to keep searching. I hate to tell you, but the Spirit did NOT lead you away from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is contains the fullness of truth, and God, being all Truth, CANNOT lead someone to do what is even remotely at odds with His Truth. Could it be you were relying on your feelings and opinions?

When I went to my current church, i FELT joy. My heart jumps when i sing, some of the songs move me to tears. There have been certain sermons by our pastor that hit home so well, my wife and I talk about them for hours after services. In all my years at mass, i had never had such a moving of the Spirit as i do now.

Again, you're relying too much on emotions. In the Mass, the same sacrifice that took place on Calvary is made available to us here and now! It is through Holy Communion (a visible sign conferring grace) that the believer unites himself with the Lord. No relying on fuzzy feelings, mustering a sense of faith, dramatic sermons, or "worship music." No, here we have something much more profound, something absolutely inimitable: a visible union between Christ and the believer. Nothing could EVER trump that!

I dont believe in looking at one side of an issue, i have studied the catholic faith at length from Catholic sources, as well as my own from other sources. Why are you assuming i didnt look in the right places?

Well then, if you looked at both sides, and both sides say something different, then it would only be right that you make the effort to determine which one is right. Besides, as I said earlier, Protestant sources are usually biased and filled with misinformation. C'mon now, if you drive a Ford and need to read about how to repair Fords, would you buy a book on how to repair Hondas? No! In the same way, if you want to learn about what the Catholic Church teaches, you buy a book by an orthodox Catholic on what the Church teaches, not one written by a non-Catholic on what THEY SAY the Church teaches.

There is nothing wrong with ritual if it has meaning. Early in my Catholic life, i was saying that it was all ritual because the mysteries that give them meaning were never fullyexplained to me. Later in life as i learned more about them THEn they meant more.

<example> Giving up something for lent. When i was young it was something to endure thru, and sneak around just to shut my parents up. Later I understood that the sacrifice was to be a daily reminder of the REASON Christ gave his life for us, so that every time you went for that thing that you gave up you would say"Thank you Lord for your selfless sacrifice"

There's NO ritual in the Catholic Church without meaning.

Edited February 18, 2004 by Dave

[M.SIGGA]

Dave,

From the view of someone who needed a spiritual lift with interaction from other faithfilled Christians, and also as someone who left the Catholic Church, I think I can relate to Silverbug's position to some extent. Conversion can't be explained just so matter-of-fact with a text book definition all the time because it's extremely personal and unique to every individual. Plus always take into consideration the many dementions of human nature when refering to emotionalism, because it comes from God and it plays a big part in everyone's faith, both Catholics and Protestants. Every Christian from Catholicism and the Protestant denominations is on a walk with God and I don't think anyone can judge the revelations of that walk because only the person who is experiencing how God is becoming a part of their life really understands.

[Silverbug]

Dave-

You have GOT to be kidding.

You say you weren't spiritually fed. That's just another way of saying you didn't get anything out of it. Well then, that must mean you didn't put anything INTO it. Or at least, you put the wrong things into it.

ok dude--here we go again. you immediately jump into the asumption that I was at fault for not accepting the Mass, or that i went under false assumptions or pretenses. I stated in a previous post (on the other thread) that when I was attending mass, it was as a Catholic. I went into it full force--not just for one service, but for months. I was fully aware of what was transpiring, and what it meant.

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Worshiping God has NEVER been based on emotions.

What are you talking about? Christ himself was VERY emotional about His ministry, about His love for us, about His mission. Worshipping God is an emotional act as well as a spiritual one. So what are you saying? Worship is to consist of a somber, serious time of reflection. God is LOVE, as well as Joy, the Angels themselves rejoice when someone turns to Christ.

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the Spirit did NOT lead you away from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is contains the fullness of truth, and God, being all Truth, CANNOT lead someone to do what is even remotely at odds with His Truth. Could it be you were relying on your feelings and opinions?

Upon reflection, yes it did. I was led to a Church that does contain the fullness of truth--God IS indeed truth, and love. In part, yes I was relying on emotions, as well as the leading of the Spirit.

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Again, you're relying too much on emotions. In the Mass, the same sacrifice that took place on Calvary is made available to us here and now! It is through Holy Communion (a visible sign conferring grace) that the believer unites himself with the Lord. No relying on fuzzy feelings, mustering a sense of faith, dramatic sermons, or "worship music." No, here we have something much more profound, something absolutely inimitable: a visible union between Christ and the believer. Nothing could EVER trump that!

When did i mention "dramatic sermons"? I said that they hit home--meaning they Meant something to me. Meaning my pastor was able to bring Gods word to apply directly to my life in a real an personal way. This is wrong in some way? Not ever. This is what is needed to spiritually feed yourself. A sense of faith. How can you blow that off as something wrong or secondary? A sense that you are drawing close to Christ in a personal way. He becomes your personal savior and personal friend and confidante. Nothing can ever come close to that.

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Well then, if you looked at both sides, and both sides say something different, then it would only be right that you make the effort to determine which one is right. Besides, as I said earlier, Protestant sources are usually biased and filled with misinformation.if you want to learn about what the Catholic Church teaches, you buy a book by an orthodox Catholic on what the Church teaches, not one written by a non-Catholic on what THEY SAY the Church teaches.

I thought i went over that but here it is again. I had searched sources from Catholics, talked to clergy, and other Catholics. I also researched non-catholic sources. I did take the effort to find which one is right, I am totally comfortable with my choice.

[Dave]

Dave-

You have GOT to be kidding.

You say you weren't spiritually fed. That's just another way of saying you didn't get anything out of it. Well then, that must mean you didn't put anything INTO it. Or at least, you put the wrong things into it.

ok dude--here we go again. you immediately jump into the asumption that I was at fault for not accepting the Mass, or that i went under false assumptions or pretenses. I stated in a previous post (on the other thread) that when I was attending mass, it was as a Catholic. I went into it full force--not just for one service, but for months. I was fully aware of what was transpiring, and what it meant.

So then why didn't it mean anything to you? It wasn't the Church's fault, so whose fault could it be?

Worshiping God has NEVER been based on emotions.

What are you talking about? Christ himself was VERY emotional about His ministry, about His love for us, about His  mission. Worshipping God is an emotional act as well as a spiritual one. So what are you saying? Worship is to consist of a somber, serious time of reflection. God is LOVE, as well as Joy, the Angels themselves rejoice when someone turns to Christ.

But emotions aren't the be-all, end-all. That's the point I was trying to make!

the Spirit did NOT lead you away from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is contains the fullness of truth, and God, being all Truth, CANNOT lead someone to do what is even remotely at odds with His Truth. Could it be you were relying on your feelings and opinions?

Upon reflection, yes it did. I was led to a Church that does contain the fullness of truth--God IS indeed truth, and love. In part, yes I was relying on emotions, as well as the leading of the Spirit.

No, it doesn't contain the fullness of truth. Protestant churches are man-made. God is truth, but the founders of the Protestant denominations all had agendas to push. Martin Luther started the Lutheran Church to ease his scrupulous conscience, for example (which was NOT the Church's fault, BTW). Henry VIII started the Anglican Church so he could divorce and remarry. And no two teach exactly the same things. So which one is the correct one? They can't all be correct. Only one can teach the entire truth of what God has revealed. Do you think your church is infallible? Why or why not?

Again, you're relying too much on emotions. In the Mass, the same sacrifice that took place on Calvary is made available to us here and now! It is through Holy Communion (a visible sign conferring grace) that the believer unites himself with the Lord. No relying on fuzzy feelings, mustering a sense of faith, dramatic sermons, or "worship music." No, here we have something much more profound, something absolutely inimitable: a visible union between Christ and the believer. Nothing could EVER trump that!

When did i mention "dramatic sermons"? I said that they hit home--meaning they Meant something to me. Meaning my pastor was able to bring Gods word to apply directly to my life in a real an personal way. This is wrong in some way? Not ever. This is what is needed to spiritually feed yourself. A sense of faith. How can you blow that off as something wrong or secondary? A sense that you are drawing close to Christ in a personal way. He becomes your personal savior and personal friend and confidante. Nothing can ever come close to that.

You missed the point. No sermon can ever take the place of meeting Jesus in the Eucharist.

And a sense of faith is great, but didn't Jesus say that unless we ate His Body and drank His Blood we have no life within us? To believe that we actually do that in Holy Communion requires faith, and when we partake of it, THAT is what nothing can ever come close to, except, of course, seeing Jesus face-to-face in heaven.

Well then, if you looked at both sides, and both sides say something different, then it would only be right that you make the effort to determine which one is right. Besides, as I said earlier, Protestant sources are usually biased and filled with misinformation.if you want to learn about what the Catholic Church teaches, you buy a book by an orthodox Catholic on what the Church teaches, not one written by a non-Catholic on what THEY SAY the Church teaches.

I thought i went over that but here it is again. I had searched sources from Catholics, talked to clergy, and other Catholics. I also researched non-catholic sources. I did take the effort to find which one is right, I am totally comfortable with my choice.

But what makes you so certain you chose correctly? Sometimes our own emotions and opinions can make us think we made the right decision and can even fool us into thinking they're from God when in fact they really go against what God wants.

[mulls]

when God moves in your life, you FEEL it, with FEELINGS.

[Dave]

when God moves in your life, you FEEL it, with FEELINGS.

Problem is, feelings aren't always reliable and can be mistaken. Heck, even Satan can lie to someone and make them feel so good and fool them into thinking that something is from God when it really isn't.

[mulls]

i've learned to distinguish between what is of God and what isn't. That comes with spiritual growth and maturity.

[Dave]

i've learned to distinguish between what is of God and what isn't. That comes with spiritual growth and maturity.

Well, without the Church Christ founded to guide you, all the spiritual growth and maturity in the world won't be enough. Actually, not allowing Christ's Church to guide you is a hindrance to spiritual growth and maturity.

Edited February 18, 2004 by Dave

[Silverbug]

Dave-

So then why didn't it mean anything to you? It wasn't the Church's fault, so whose fault could it be?

Look--i do not have a blow-by-blow of the explanation of where every feeling and thought that comes out of my head. I understand what you are looking for, and i dont have the answer you want. I got no meaning out of the mass--it simply doesnt mean anything to me. I do not believe in transubstantiation, i dont believe in what the mass is trying to portray. A personal walk with God and a joyful worship service simply mean more to me. I cant get any clearer than that.

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But emotions aren't the be-all, end-all. That's the point I was trying to make!

I never said they were, but they are there, they DO play a role in our spiritual life.

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No, it doesn't contain the fullness of truth. Protestant churches are man-made. God is truth, but the founders of the Protestant denominations all had agendas to push.

ALL churches are man-made. you dont really want to go thru the machinations of religion thru history do you? The Catholic church has committed more crimes in the interest of their view than other churches have. The Catholic Church has spent more time, and money supressing other religions than i care to discuss.

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So which one is the correct one? They can't all be correct. Only one can teach the entire truth of what God has revealed. Do you think your church is infallible? Why or why not?

First of all NO CHURCH IS INFALLABLE--churches are man-made, and therefore prone to error. our own pastor cited acts 17:11 to us, and said"do not assume that because I am up here that i cannot make a mistake--take what I say home with you and compare it to the scriptures" It would be the height of hubris to assume that ANY man is incapable of error. You keep getting stuck in a trap--truth is from the Word of God. God will send his Spirit to us to teach us what we need to know.

1John 2:27-28 But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you all things, and what he teaches is true – it is not a lie. So continue in what he has taught you, and continue to live in Christ.

Meaning-go to church, but read the word and pray about what was taught to you, and the Spirit will lead you to the truth. The light finally came to me, when i realized that God does not fiddler Himself thru "holy intermediaries" You have been so trained to trust the clergy that you cannot think of God without it. Christ comes DIRECTLY TO US, He talks TO ME. I have felt his presence. Not only in "holy places" but everywhere. You do not need anyone to communicate with Christ, or to forgive your sins, or to ask for help--you can go directly to Christ himself--THAT is what happened on Calvary.

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You missed the point. No sermon can ever take the place of meeting Jesus in the Eucharist.

you dont meet him in the eucharist, he comes to you directly. You dont NEED ANYTHING to access Christ, he is right there waiting for you.

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And a sense of faith is great, but didn't Jesus say that unless we ate His Body and drank His Blood we have no life within us? To believe that we actually do that in Holy Communion requires faith, and when we partake of it, THAT is what nothing can ever come close to, except, of course, seeing Jesus face-to-face in heaven.

Christ asked us to do that in rememberance of him-but it was symbolic, NOT his actual body.

[cmotherofpirl]

Silverbug would this be a synopsis of what you said?

You were rebellious - you couldn't understand the relationship of the Bible to the Church -you found two verses that appealed to you - you found a girl that appealed to you - you found a group that made you feel good.

Is this a fair summary?

[mulls]

lol

[Silverbug]

Wow-thru all the post thats ALL you got from it? Sad.

When did i ever say my wife played into it? At what point was it that you stopped reading? She had nothing to do with my Faith, I was giving a description of where my journey led me, I happened to meet her during this time.

I do under stand the relationship of the Bible to the Church,I just choose not to go with the Catholic interpretation of it. I am currently at work, and cannot give all the relevant passages, however i will rectify this in the next 2 days, as i will have time to post it all.

The group i belong to DOES make worship enjoyable, but living the life of a Christian isnt easy, it does involve constant prayer and vigilance against temptation.

PS-thank all of you. I was warned about this site. It started out as a good experience, but it didnt take long for the bashing to begin-simply because i dont agree with you. But thats ok--bring it.

[Dave]

Dave-

So then why didn't it mean anything to you? It wasn't the Church's fault, so whose fault could it be?

Look--i do not have a blow-by-blow of the explanation of where every feeling and thought that comes out of my head. I understand what you are looking for, and i dont have the answer you want. I got no meaning out of the mass--it simply doesnt mean anything to me. I do not believe in transubstantiation, i dont believe in what the mass is trying to portray. A personal walk with God and a joyful worship service simply mean more to me. I cant get any clearer than that.

That's a non-answer. You're saying you didn't get anything out of the Mass because you didn't get anything out of the Mass. Since the Church isn't at fault here, there's only one other person that can be at fault -- you.

As for a personal walk with Jesus . . .

* A Catholic’s personal relationship with God begins when they are "born again" through the sacrament of baptism. In this sacrament, the Lord forgives mortal, venial, and original sin as well as permanently marking the soul with a sign of His grace. One must remember Christ words, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and spirit" (Jn. 3:5).

* When a Catholic does good works for their neighbor they are meeting Christ face to face. "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me" (Matt. 25:35-36).

* The sacrament of confession is a personal encounter with Jesus. Christ established this beautiful sacrament to free us from our sins when He said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained" (Jn. 20:22-23).

* When a Catholic reads or hears Scripture they are experiencing the Lord in a profound and intimate way. "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

* Personal prayer is a one on one conversation with God which takes many forms such as, a novena, praying a rosary, or a simple petition from the heart. "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you" (Matt. 6:6).

* The worthy reception of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament is the most personal experience one can have with our Savior. One truly receives the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. "For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him" (John 6:55-56).

* Catholics encounter Jesus in very special way in the sacrament of anointing of the sick or commonly call the last rites. In this sacrament bestowed through and only through a Catholic priest, Christ forgives sin, heals the body if it is His will, and strengthens the soul for the journey home. "Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he is in sin, they shall be forgiven him" (James 5:14).

You can't get more personal than that while on earth.

But emotions aren't the be-all, end-all. That's the point I was trying to make!

I never said they were, but they are there, they DO play a role in our spiritual life.

Yet it's possible to rely TOO MUCH on them.

No, it doesn't contain the fullness of truth. Protestant churches are man-made. God is truth, but the founders of the Protestant denominations all had agendas to push.

ALL churches are man-made. you dont really want to go thru the machinations of religion thru history do you? The Catholic church has committed more crimes in the interest of their view than other churches have. The Catholic Church has spent more time, and money supressing other religions than i care to discuss.

I'm sorry, but you're totally wrong here. All BUT the Catholic Church are man-made. The Catholic Church has existed for 2000 years, proclaiming the same Good News and the same teachings of Christ now that it did 2000 years ago. As for crimes, the Church itself has never committed crimes. Certain individuals WITHIN the Church have committed crimes, but that's their own fault, not the Church's. And what's this garbage about the Catholic Church spending time and money to suppress other religions? Explain, please.

So which one is the correct one? They can't all be correct. Only one can teach the entire truth of what God has revealed. Do you think your church is infallible? Why or why not?

First of all NO CHURCH IS INFALLABLE--churches are man-made, and therefore prone to error. our own pastor cited acts 17:11 to us, and said"do not assume that because I am up here that i cannot make a mistake--take what I say home with you and compare it to the scriptures" It would be the height of hubris to assume that ANY man is incapable of error. You keep getting stuck in a trap--truth is from the Word of God. God will send his Spirit to us to teach us what we need to know.

1John 2:27-28 But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you all things, and what he teaches is true – it is not a lie. So continue in what he has taught you, and continue to live in Christ.

Meaning-go to church, but read the word and pray about what was taught to you, and the Spirit will lead you to the truth. The light finally came to me, when i realized that God does not fiddler Himself thru "holy intermediaries" You have been so trained to trust the clergy that you cannot think of God without it. Christ comes DIRECTLY TO US, He talks TO ME. I have felt his presence. Not only in "holy places" but everywhere. You do not need anyone to communicate with Christ, or to forgive your sins, or to ask for help--you can go directly to Christ himself--THAT is what happened on Calvary.

Yes, Catholics believe Truth is from the Word of God. The problem is, we believe the Word of God comes from the Bible and Sacred Tradition, and it's transmitted to us via the Magisterium, that is, teaching authority of the Church. Protestants, on the other hand, believe it comes from the Bible alone and that they can interpret it for themselves. But what this leads to is confusion, as one person says it means one thing, another person says it means another thing, and so forth. And yet they all think they're being guided by the Holy Spirit. But are they really? The Holy Spirit is the author of Truth, not confusion. His Truth is ONE.

Also, take a look at Matthew 18. In that passage, Jesus tells us how to deal with a fellow Christian who falls into sin or error. If he won't listen to an individual, then 2 or more witnesses should confront him "so that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." If he refuses to listen to them, they are to go to the Church. And then it says, "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector" (Matt. 18:16-17). In other words, the Church has the final say. Christ gave it the authority to excommunicate someone for sin or heresy. Afterward, Jesus teaches us about authority again: "Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (verse 18). How could the Church fulfill the Lord's command to decide issues authoritatively if it's not infallible?

Also, how can you say the Bible is the supreme authority when it can't interpret itself? Remember Hebrews 13:7, where it says the faithful must "obey them that have rule over [them], and submit; for they watch for [their] souls."

Now look at Acts 15 and 16, which describes a doctrinal and pastoral controversy in the early Church. The Apostles and elders had to call a council to consider questions about the Mosaic Law and admitting Gentiles into the Church. "And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren and said, 'Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question" (Acts 15:1-2).

The council did NOT appeal to Scripture alone to settle the difficulty, and besides, they only had the Old Testament, as the New Testament hadn't even been written yet. So isn't it true that the Church decided the matter, as the Lord commanded in Matthew 18? And doesn't this magisterial authority also fulfill what Jesus promised His disciples, and by extension the Church, "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me?" (Luke 10:16, Matt. 10:40).

Now let's consider Jude's warning to the Church (Jude 11), where Jude condemns those intruders who are following after the "rebellion of Korah" (Jude 3-11). It talks about it in Numbers 16 -- Korah and his followers were condemned and punished by God for their rebellion against the priests who had been appointed to preside over the people of Israel. How do you explain the fact that Jude was warning the Church against those who rejected the authority of the New Testament Church's hierarchy if it wasn't meant to have an authoritative hierarchy?

In addition, Jude's warning coincided with Jesus' warning to the churches of Asia Minor who rejected the decisions of the Council of Jerusalem: "Repent, or else I will come unto thee quickly and will fight against thee with the sword of my mouth" (Rev. 2:16).

As for 1 John 2:27-28, the Holy Spirit speaks preeminently through the Church, so that when the Church teaches officially, it isn't mere human teaching but the Holy Spirit guiding the Church. Remember Acts 15:28: "It is the decision of the Holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities." The apostles then sent Paul and Silas, "who handed on to the people for observance the decisions reached by the apostles and presbyters in Jerusalem" (16:4). These Church decrees were necessary things that were binding on all Christians. Christians weren't free to reject what the Church taught without at the same time rejecting Christ Himself. And think about what Paul said: "Although we were able to impose our weight as apostles of Christ . . . we were gentle among you" (1 Thess. 2:7).

As for your pastor, if he's not infallible, then how can his interpretations of Scripture be binding on the consciences of the members of his congregation? If he has no guarantee his interpretations are correct, why should they trust him? And if his interpretations are purely human in nature and origin, aren't they then merely traditions of men? Jesus condemned traditions of men which nullify the Word of God. If it's possible, as you admit, that your pastor's interpretations may be wrong -- he has no infallible way of knowing for sure -- then it's possible that he's nullifying the Word of God.

You missed the point. No sermon can ever take the place of meeting Jesus in the Eucharist.

you dont meet him in the eucharist, he comes to you directly. You dont NEED ANYTHING to access Christ, he is right there waiting for you.

Why did Jesus say, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him?" (John 6:53–56). In a sense you're right in that Jesus does come to us directly. He comes to us in a special way in the Eucharist. But we have to do our part and come to Mass. As for not needing anything to access Christ, yes, He's always there waiting for us, but that doesn't mean He doesn't WANT us to use certain means of accessing Him.

And a sense of faith is great, but didn't Jesus say that unless we ate His Body and drank His Blood we have no life within us? To believe that we actually do that in Holy Communion requires faith, and when we partake of it, THAT is what nothing can ever come close to, except, of course, seeing Jesus face-to-face in heaven.

Christ asked us to do that in rememberance of him-but it was symbolic, NOT his actual body.

Where does it say in the Bible that it's symbolic? It doesn't! It says the opposite. I'll show you how, if you like, but we might need a separate thread for it.

[cmotherofpirl]

I was simply trying to follow your journey thru all the different posts.

I am not about to argue scripture with you at this point, I am simply clarifying where you are coming from.

People do attack positions and arguments, but rarely people. When that happens, the posts and sometimes even the poster is quickly removed.

[Dave]

bump