Are You Religious ?

[Guest]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1462305' date='Feb 14 2008, 01:31 PM']Okay, the only way to wade through this mess it to have someone from the inside (formerly on the inside) of this kind of thinking explain things.

I was part of a church community that spoke in this way. They saw traditions, rituals, ceremonies, written prayers and all things liturgical as 'religion' and therefore as empty. "Those people just mindlessly repeat those written prayers and mindlessly stand up and sit down in their liturgies. [i]THAT[/i] is the spirit of religion. No...we do not do 'religion'. We have a personal relationship with Jesus. I pray from my heart to Jesus; not some dead old prayer written by someone else. I want to know and love Jesus passionately in an intimate way where I can feel his presence and any man-made structure can only get in the way of that..."

That was the mindless chatter that buzzed around in everyone's minds and on everyone's lips. "Religion" was something that stood in the way of God to try and replace him. "My relationship with Jesus" was an apparently uninhibited contact with God.

This is the thinking that pervades so much of modern evangelicalism -- ESPECIALLY THAT OF PENTECOSTALISM.

We, of course, see the flaws in this kind of thinking. Tradition is beautiful: it shows the love and grace of God to us. It is an act of worship in itself and draws our hearts and minds closer to God. Rituals free us from the bondage of trying to manufacture feelings of piety so that we can truly get in contact with God. Whenever there is something special and important in one's life (no matter what denomination you come from), be it a birthday or a wedding, there is always a procession, dimmed lights, rituals and traditions up to one's eyeballs. Far from getting in the way, the traditions incarnate the celebration and make it enjoyable.

Objections to written prayers are especially absurd. Not only because we know they are powerful and teach us about God, but because these pentecostals do something which is ontologically identical to written prayers: their silly, sappy 'worship' songs. Those are all pre-written and are sung over and over again, week after week after week. They do not appear to see the contradiction there.

We know the power and value of 'religion' in the sense that they mean. Far from being empty, it enriches our relationship with God and acknowledges our humanity: we are not disembodied spirits. Yet the clincher is this: the word 'religion' actually derives from ancient words that mean RELATIONSHIP.

So this flies right in the face of these people who say, "Relationship, not religion!" What they are saying is really, "Relationship, not relationship!" This shows that our forebears, when they celebrated these rituals and then called them 'religion', they saw no contradiction between the rituals and a relationship with God. When I told my family and friends all this their faces sank as they realized all those years they had been saying, "Relationship, not relationship!"

Far from being merely what moderns call "spiritual" (where they go to Church once a year), these pentecostals are crazy about going to church every week and getting involved. So it is not the "spiritual" problem; it is the "relationship" problem.

Oh boy,

Philip[/quote]


that sums it up

[123]

[quote]The thing i hear alot now is christians saying their not religious. They follow this up with they have a personal relationship with jesus leading to God. What is it to be religious and are you religious ? Is their anything wrong with being religious ? Are people saying that their not religious denying their faith ? What divides the catholic christian and the non denominational christian ? It seems as if the catholic christian is saying their religious and the non denominatial christian is saying their not.[/quote]

I guess being Non-religious starts with how one defines religion. You can follow a philosophical system of ethics, and consider that a religion. Others consider the previous merely philosophy, and that religion deals with a person's relationship with a personal or impersonal God. Depending on these interpretations one can consider him/herself as following a "religion" but not believing in God or gods, or being philosophical and going to mass every Sunday.

I agree with what rkwright wrote:

[quote]To me, to be truly non-religious one would have to be either agnostic, atheist, or simply a theist...I think these people are actually just saying they're non-denominational, or they're not in an organized religion.[/quote]

In a broad sense one whom is not religious would be consider as agnostic or atheistic. But, there are "religions" for atheists and agnostics.

...As for Rev. Dollar, I dunno what message he tries to get across, but sometimes "prosperity sermons" and money are not the epitome of the Christian faith. Clinging to worldly things brings suffering in one's life and there is no complete happiness within the illusions of money and desire. These objects fade and never last. I guess if you don't logically breakdown Creflo's sermons these Bible based money schemes can get you attached to the Almighty Dollar, not God.

Edited February 18, 2008 by GloriaIesusChristi

[faithfulrock3r]

you guys all got it right:

"i'm spiritual, but not religious" = BS

[Paddington]

Here are 2 gems from the NT that should make sb think twice.

1 Tim 5:4 "If a widow has children or grandchildren, they should first learn their
[i]religious[/i] duty to their own family and make some repayment to their parents; for this is pleasing in God's sight."

1 James 1:26-27 "If any think they are [i]religious[/i], and do not bridle thir tongues but deceive their hearts, their [i]religion[/i] is worthless. [i]Religion[/i] that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world."

Nobody wants to be against the Scriptures and even less when they are talking about helping one's own parents and grandparents as well as orphans and widows.

If this discussion happens, it is also a good chance to share agreement on how religion is warped if it is not the same as a personal relationship with God. You can say that praying off the top of your head is important too. That could lead to "why not do both?"

[Norseman82]

When people say that, it seems to me that they are simply saying that they do not want to be under any authority, particularly that of the Catholic Church. Part of that mentality that I've also seen (among protestants in other forums I used to follow more closely) is that it us up to yourself to determine the right church for you, and the deciding factor is whether or noy YOU feel that the church is in line with YOUR understanding of the bible.

[jeffpugh]

Yeah. Exactly. It's sorta sickening.

[Phazzan]

I’m not religious anymore. I’ve thought about it long and hard for many years. My MO involves thinking outside the square, observing how other humans think and thinking differently. this is because human thought can’t be trusted, given the diversity of religious thought throughout history. Now a man who thinks Jesus is truth, thinks a man who thinks Allah is truth is wrong, and vice versa. See how faith betrays one man yet saves another? Faith cant be trusted. Neither can your convictions. Many of your Muslim and Jewish brothers and sisters have equally inspiring testimonies and are as blindly (you would argue) devoted to their faith as any Catholic. Yet you go to heaven and they go to hell?? Who to believe? Your faith is determined on a whole series of psycho-social phenomena, your family, your country, your race, anything but your free will. The day I exercised mine was the day I left the church.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Phazzan

[ardillacid]

Right, why believe anything. After all, you will always find someone else who disagrees with you, and who are you to say they are wrong.

[Phazzan]

You can believe anything you want, the question is weather or not there's a ticket into heaven (or hell) at the end of it.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Phazzan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Phazzan' post='1469103' date='Feb 26 2008, 08:50 AM']You can believe anything you want, the question is weather or not there's a ticket into heaven (or hell) at the end of it.[/quote]

People who believe Catholicism is a ticket to Heaven are bad Catholics.

Edited February 27, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1461180' date='Feb 13 2008, 05:23 PM']The thing i hear alot now is christians saying their not religious. They follow this up with they have a personal relationship with jesus leading to God. What is it to be religious and are you religious ? Is their anything wrong with being religious ? Are people saying that their not religious denying their faith ? What divides the catholic christian and the non denominational christian ? It seems as if the catholic christian is saying their religious and the non denominatial christian is saying their not.[/quote]

The term "religious" is taboo is many Evangelical circles because it is associated with the outward appearance of doing religious activities while lacking inner conversion of heart. This is largely due to their observance of Catholics and mainline Protestants, making religious practice something to be suspected and questioned rather than respected and imitated. Catholics are the easiest to point out as the phrases "practicing Catholic" along with "good Catholic" and "bad Catholic" (which I just used, but tongue in cheek ) are all in our vocabulary and tend to concern us more than whether our Catholic brother or sister loves Christ and if their lifestyle reflects the Gospel.

I think among some Evangelicals, perhaps in the Emerging Church Movement, people are starting to understand that being religious doesn't have to mean you have no relationship with Christ. I imagine some Catholics have helped to change that perception too. There was a post on a Relevant Magazine's board today where a Protestant mentioned how they used to be adamantly anti-Catholic until they shared a roof with a Catholic for some time. They had probably observed hundreds of Catholics from a distance, but all it took was one personal relationship to completely change them.

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1462305' date='Feb 14 2008, 01:31 PM']We know the power and value of 'religion' in the sense that they mean. Far from being empty, it enriches our relationship with God and acknowledges our humanity: we are not disembodied spirits. Yet the clincher is this: the word 'religion' actually derives from ancient words that mean RELATIONSHIP.[/quote]

Now that is interesting! I presume the shared "rel" hints at their common linguistic heritage. I'd really like to find out exactly how they are connected so I can use that bit of trivia in the future

Edited February 27, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Phazzan]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1469711' date='Feb 27 2008, 01:04 AM']People who believe Catholicism is a ticket to Heaven are bad Catholics. [/quote]

Either your faith saves you or it condemns you, that is the crux of faith, "believe and you shall receive". There are few (if any) religions which preach devotion to god without some prize at the end of it.

[LouisvilleFan]

Of course... most religions teach that this world is broken and needs restoration and the only logical time that restoration can be experienced is after death. These are truths written on our hearts that are reflected dimly through nearly every religion.

However, the point isn't to get our prize. In Christianity, we love God in response to his love for us. If we're just trying to get to Heaven, we're still acting out of selfishness... and that means spending 328 years in purgatory before getting into Heaven (just kidding).

God searches all hearts, regardless of religious affiliation, and it's up to him to judge who loves him and who has condemned themselves. Without knowing for certain, there will probably be people from all faiths in Heaven. But regardless of what they were in this life, all who are saved are saved only by God's grace.

Edited February 27, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[SanctitasDeo]

[quote]To me, to be truly non-religious one would have to be either agnostic, atheist, or simply a theist. Once you start saying I have a relationship with Jesus, you are by definition a christian, you are religious in my book.

I think these people are actually just saying they're non-denominational, or they're not in an organized religion.[/quote]

I agree.

Also, I am religious.

[Phazzan]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1470035' date='Feb 27 2008, 02:56 PM']God searches all hearts, regardless of religious affiliation, and it's up to him to judge who loves him and who has condemned themselves. Without knowing for certain, there will probably be people from all faiths in Heaven. But regardless of what they were in this life, all who are saved are saved only by God's grace.[/quote]

Despite this, the Muslim man, equally devoted and convinced by his faith as any Catholic, having full knowledge of the Gospel, his faith still condemns him to hell. Faith betrays this honest and devout believer. It's no good to say "only god can judge the hearts of men", because no man honestly condemns himself to hell, every man acts according to his conscious and does only what he thinks is right. Yet we know the Catholic Church has for centuries explicitly stated salvation is only possible through its own doors.