Lie To Save The Innocent?

[dairygirl4u2c]

ty

[Paddington]

Rahab lied, didn't she?

[Paddington]

I heard RC Sproul (Reformed theologian) say that honesty is giving info to people that should get the info. Now that line of thought can be abused, but hey.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i'm a consequentialist... so i lie frequently when people like that don't deserve the info.

lying to get ahead andor at the expense of others isn't as cool to me.

where do you draw the line etc?

i'm all for absolute truth, but never for claiming it's clear.

i'm not going to rationzlie that it's merely a venial sin, and so okay. but that rational, God would rather have us not lie and let people die. plus, lying breaks the ten commandments... i doubt you could rationalize it as a venial sin, other than to speculate that you were weak at the time. most people wouldn't be weak at the time, but openly lied. they might try to pyscho avoid it somehow but that's not being weak at the time.

[rkwright]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1458918' date='Feb 10 2008, 09:19 PM']i'm a consequentialist... so i lie frequently when people like that don't deserve the info.

lying to get ahead andor at the expense of others isn't as cool to me.

where do you draw the line etc?

i'm all for absolute truth, but never for claiming it's clear.

i'm not going to rationzlie that it's merely a venial sin, and so okay. but that rational, God would rather have us not lie and let people die. plus, lying breaks the ten commandments... i doubt you could rationalize it as a venial sin, other than to speculate that you were weak at the time. most people wouldn't be weak at the time, but openly lied. they might try to pyscho avoid it somehow but that's not being weak at the time.[/quote]

If you're a consequentialist let me propose the scenario to you... There has been a murder in the town, it was a terrible and awful crime. If you convict and hang someone you will send a message to the town that murder is not acceptable, and for numbers sake, prevent 150 murders from happening. The problem is that your missing the evidence and a suspect. But you could easily frame someone, say pick someone up off the street and frame them for it.

Assuming you could do all this and 'get away with it', as a consequentialist, would you do it?

[rkwright]

I'll fight the hypo for a bit. Couldn't you say something like, well "I don't know if theres any one there?" afterall they might have left the room. Or could you say "They're not in there" believing that they moved out when the nazi's arrived?

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]If you're a consequentialist let me propose the scenario to you... There has been a murder in the town, it was a terrible and awful crime. If you convict and hang someone you will send a message to the town that murder is not acceptable, and for numbers sake, prevent 150 murders from happening. The problem is that your missing the evidence and a suspect. But you could easily frame someone, say pick someone up off the street and frame them for it.

Assuming you could do all this and 'get away with it', as a consequentialist, would you do it?[/quote]

probably not. only because i doubt the message is worth it or really effective enough.
one person dying isn't much of a message.
if i could stop all deaths for sure, for the sake of argument even though it's not gonna happen that'd i'd know that, then.... it would have to be a clear very high number of individuals that i was gonna save. then i'd probably do it. one person for a million to be extreme, probably. if it was a bad person being executed and for sure gonna stop murders, most likely.
it's not something that's easy. execution as legit by teh CC isn't easy either. your feelings of hte matter isn't the basis of what's legit. it can be an indication but even by CC standards, that's not the basis. it's not easy to see the number of people die either.
people just hear things like "a thousand die" and it's just numbers and figures... but think about doing something physically detrimental to someone and it's more concrete imagery.... i think they're not really grasping the lives lost andor suffereing that would be just as bad but actually worse as what you'd do to that person.

i never claimed the answers were clear. some things are clearer than others.... ie lying to save a thousand lives etc is legit etc.


*****"I don't know if theres any one there?" afterall they might have left the room. Or could you say "They're not in there" believing that they moved out when the nazi's arrived?

i suppose technically you don't know they're there if you're not looking at them.
i think you're effectively lying though.
and if you say thing slike i don't know wet when you do know for sure as you see hem or something, then it's lying.
and the whole point is something you're not really addressing but are rather trying to avoid.
what if you have to lie to save them?
i have to change the hypo to compensate for how you're manuevering to avoid it which is really just games..... they ask "have they been here in the last day, and have you ssen them in there within the last few minutes?" and you have seen them and it's all in the affirmative.
it seems like you should either admit that you'd lie..... or admit that you'd not lie and let them die.
either admission isn't a win for the dogmatics on this issue out there. lying is actually a win if you're willing to ackwnoledge that it's truly the best option.

Edited February 11, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

i tend ot look at the "thou shalt not lie" thing to mean as a rule of thumb. normally... you shouldn't lie in business deals or friends or family or relationships etc.
the rule wasn't intended for things like a nazi at your door though. if the intent wasn't for that, then it's not wrong. just because it's "thou shalt not lie" which appears to be all lying is wrong, to read it that way is simply losing the spirit of the law like the pharasees did and being narrow hwne that's not necessarily right etc.

[CatherineM]

so much does depend on the situation. If asked if I was harboring Jews for example, saying no saves their lives, and probably mine too. If the situation though is to deny the faith in order to save lives, I would hope that I could find the courage to stand for the faith.

[Deb]

well of course someone would lie to save people's lives. I would never deny my Christ however regardless of what it would do.

[jeffpugh]

This scenario is a trick. It's not lying when you say "no," but think "none that you should know about" because they have no right to the truth. It's not lying but reservation of mind. Lying is telling of an untruth and intending to deceive. In the Nazi case, you're intending to deceive, but reservation of mind keeps it in the context of truth, but because of their apparent evil intent, they do not have the right to that truth.

Though, I should mention that Kant said that one should say yes, because when you do, the Jews will sneak through the back door while the Nazis come inside, but if you say no and they sneak out, they will get caught by the men. Kant's situation is quite a cop-out though.

[29908]

I would totally lie to save the Jews... Like, sometimes, it's okay!

I love the quote, Paddington!

[dairygirl4u2c]

if you say "none that you should know about" that would tip them off and they'd search.
maybe it wouldn't, but it probably would.

instead of taking dogma like "the ends don't justify the means. period". and taking it beyond the realm of common sense. that everyone would is gonna lie about. you should instead approach it from common sense.


all this "the ends don't justify the means. period. ever." stuff is not christian.
here is an interesting book:
[url="http://www.authorhouse.com/bookstore/ItemDetail~bookid~12767.aspx"]http://www.authorhouse.com/bookstore/ItemD...okid~12767.aspx[/url]

Edited February 11, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Deb]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1459174' date='Feb 11 2008, 11:35 AM']if you say "none that you should know about" that would tip them off and they'd search.
maybe it wouldn't, but it probably would.

instead of taking dogma like "the ends don't justify the means. period". and taking it beyond the realm of common sense. that everyone would is gonna lie about. you should instead approach it from common sense.


all this "the ends don't justify the means. period. ever." stuff is not christian.
here is an interesting book:
[url="http://www.authorhouse.com/bookstore/ItemDetail~bookid~12767.aspx"]http://www.authorhouse.com/bookstore/ItemD...okid~12767.aspx[/url][/quote]


You wouldn't say the "none that you know about" out loud, only in your mind.

If you are trying to attach torture and killing to justify means with lying, there is no comparison. Lying to save a persons life would justify the means.

[prose]

I wouldn't think twice about lying.

If there was a Jewish person in my house, I would have promised them protection. I would have lied to them if I tell Nazis where they are. You are in a situation that you would be lying no matter what you choose. So I would choose to save lives.