Various Waterboarding Scenarios

[Alycin]

You might want to ease up on the ad hominems, repeatedly dissing church teaching and calling people cowards and hypocrites doesn't really win any points and might just get you banned.





On another note, the thing about hypothetical situations is that they are made-up and you "know" the end result.

In real life, you don't know for SURE that those kids would be saved. You don't know for sure that torture would even work!

Hypothetical situations = moot.

[dairygirl4u2c]

nice way to avoid simply saying you won't torture, not matter what... state "i would let millions die even if i knew i could get the info by torturing" instead of rationzling that these are far fetched.


police beating people who admit they know but won't tell isn't uncommon.
the nazi hypothetical is not at all that uncommon. removed from the nazi aspect.... at least a situation where lying could save many lives isn't uncommon.

most people here would probably lie. that means they're hypocrites. i'm just stating the truth.

Edited February 11, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

the idea that someone doesn't lie to save innocent people's lives.... it reeks of dogmatism taken beyond the realm of common sense.

i mean seriously.

[Alycin]

I never said anything about lying. Lying in that situation would be, at most, a venial sin.


Torture.... that's a whole nother ball game. Remember, to Catholics, not all sins are equal.

[Alycin]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1458894' date='Feb 10 2008, 08:56 PM']state "i would let millions die even if i knew i could get the info by torturing"[/quote]

Saying that, in itself, is a LIE. I'm sorry that you can't get it through your head that it's impossible to predict the future and therefore saying I KNOW for a fact that I could get a certain outcome is UNTRUE and IMPOSSIBLE... but that would be your problem, not mine.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1458857' date='Feb 10 2008, 06:10 PM']i don't think it's evil. but if it's is, it's for the greater good and the common sense way to proceed, sometimes. i don't see how you could call it evil though.

you are a coward kolbe. who would let an underground vault of children die when the person who put them there can get them out and is the only way they're going to get out? only someone who puts dogmatic approach to a situation prevail over common sense and the way of God. God is not immune from violent acts when necessary, as reading the bible shows.

you talk about how ineffective the methods are. but, the FBI etc have said they've gotten information. and in hypos like my undergound vault scenario, the person we all know knows the info. bad guys knowing the vital info and everyone knowing htey know it is rare but not uncommon. you guys like to raionalize that these are "unlikely" but the point is that you'd let it happen... and it's not always unlikely, if you think about many criminals in everyday society knowing something and not telling (like the police beatings etc)
really, your points about ineffectivenes doesn't matter. you should just admit that even if it was the perfect siutation, you would not torture, cause it's against your principles. you're making excuses for your cowardice and silly principles.
instead of stating ilke i asked to say "i would let millions die etc" you simply mocked and puts words in my mouth in caps..... still avoiding?
your principles of death, a lack of common sense, absolutely immoral cowardice, and inhumane evil.[/quote]


I propose to treat people like...ummm.. people...(even and especially when they do not deserve it) and i am the evil one.

You have yet to answer my original query, while implying my evasiveness and cowardice. Well played!!! Well played, indeed.

yeah..

Arguments like yours should be relegated to the Lame Board.

chump.

[hoosieranna]

You seem determined to get a rise out of someone. Very well. I'll take the bait. I cannot and will not condone torture. That is a line that once crossed cannot be recrossed. Scenarios of increasing absurdity do not serve to support the idea that torture, of any sort, can be justified in some circumstances. I'll say nothing further about it.

Edited February 11, 2008 by Nadezhda

[Alycin]

[quote name='Nadezhda' post='1458998' date='Feb 10 2008, 10:44 PM']You seem determined to get a rise out of someone. Very well. I'll take the bait. I cannot and will not condone torture. That is a line that once crossed cannot be recrossed. Scenarios of increasing absurdity do not serve to support the idea that torture, of any sort, can be justified in some circumstances.[/quote]


BUT BUT BUT!!!

What if evil aliens abduct our babies and we have to waterboard them or else they won't teleport our babies back to us?!!???

Then torture is okay right?

No?

Coward! Hypocrite!

[Deb]

What if you work in a nursing home and half the patients have severe hemorroids? The evil ones have taken all the Preparation H and hidden it. You have caught one of the evil ones. You hear the aged begging for some itch relief and it brings you to tears. You know the pain and agony they are suffering because you too have been hit with the horrifying Hemorroid. Do you waterboard the evil one, whom you know, knows where the Preparation H has been squirreled away. (no offense to squirrels, you know how they like to hide things) or do you allow all those people to suffer? (most are veterans and/or priests)

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='MIkolbe' post='1458655' date='Feb 10 2008, 03:55 PM']Tell you what....

Instead of trying to prove that something evil is in fact good by switching the arguments around, let's see if you can come at this argument straight on....

From the CCC
[i]2313 Non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely. [/i]

Explain how water-boarding or other forms of torutre perpetrated on non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners is in line with the above statement from the CCC?

Possible answers which are irrelevant
1) We are the good guys, they are the bad guys, so it's ok.
2) It's war, so it's ok.
3) It's a war like no other, so it's ok.
4) They started it, so it's ok.
5) Other people do it, so it's ok.
6) The Church has done bad things (maybe even worse things) in the past, so it's ok.
7) MIKolbe, you're an idiot, and you have no idea how to defend a nation; so it's ok.
8) You don't know what it's like, so it's ok.
9) This is the only way to get info, so it's ok.


And for all those who say water-boarding ain't torture, and i should grow a set and shut up; this is from the AFJ (armed forced journal)(perhaps the definitve proof waterboard enthusists will accept, appearently for some more authoritative than the Catholic Church):

[i]Let AFJ be crystal clear on a subject where these men are opaque: Waterboarding is a torture technique that has its history rooted in the Spanish Inquisition. [b]In 1947, the U.S. prosecuted a Japanese military officer for carrying out a form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian during World War II.[/b]

Waterboarding inflicts on its victims the terror of imminent death. And as with all torture techniques, it is, therefore, an inherently flawed method for gaining reliable information. In short, it doesn't work. That blunt truth means all U.S. leaders, present and future, should be clear on the issue.[/i]

[url="http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2007/12/3230108"]full article here[/url]

[url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/05/AR2007100502492_pf.html"]And here's a story about some guys who used to get info without torture or "compromising their humanity"... but that was then, and they are just silly old men now..[/url]


Heard this today at Mass
[i]But the serpent said to the woman:
"You certainly will not die!
No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it
your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods
who know what is good and what is evil."[/i]

I ain't no theologian, but sounds like the best way the devil tricks us is NOT by telling us not to do good, but by telling us to do evil stuff that is not REALLY evil.[/quote]
XIX chose number 7 this time

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1458894' date='Feb 10 2008, 08:56 PM']nice way to avoid simply saying you won't torture, not matter what... state "i would let millions die even if i knew i could get the info by torturing" instead of rationzling that these are far fetched.


police beating people who admit they know but won't tell isn't uncommon.
the nazi hypothetical is not at all that uncommon. removed from the nazi aspect.... at least a situation where lying could save many lives isn't uncommon.

most people here would probably lie. that means they're hypocrites. i'm just stating the truth.[/quote]
Someone thinks she's on a power trip

[29908]

What is up with the obsession with wakeboarding???

[Jaime]

[quote name='29908' post='1459173' date='Feb 11 2008, 11:31 AM']What is up with the obsession with wakeboarding???[/quote]

Save the cheerleader

Save the world

[jeffpugh]

lullz