Safeguards To Torture

[Jaime]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1457546' date='Feb 8 2008, 11:40 AM']what if in my underground vault scenario... and my terrorist bombing plot one... the info could be gotten if you shot them dead? this is okay, but torture is not?

i've gotten responses to this before, i simply never agreed with them. just thought i'd put it out there.[/quote]

What if moral relativism worked?

Oh wait, it doesn't

[Deb]

[i][quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1457530' date='Feb 8 2008, 10:39 AM']Please don't use my age to excuse your ignorance. It is irrelevant to the argument and to the facts.

[/i][b]I'm sorry but it is relevant. Your ignorance is obvious regarding the importance of the world view of the United States in our current times. You may wish to notice that we have been pretty much waging war and footing the bill I might add, with little or no support of anyone in the world.[/b]


[i]I already told you: Europe and the world liked us because we saved them from the Germans twice, as well as the Soviet Union, not because we were some mythical, perfect, Zion-like Camelot. The United States has white-washed its history in a lot of places. History is written by the victors, and we were the victor.

[/i][b]Thank you for telling me twice. Yes, Europe liked us because we saved them from the Germans. Yes, it is good that we did. Were we some perfect country, even then? No, or we would have assisted them earlier on instead of waiting to be bombed at Pearl Harbor. Had the Japanese not bombed us, we would have sat out WWII. You do not have to tell me about the U.S. whitewashing its history. I was lucky enough to have been someone who learned early on what kind of liars and deceivers made up government. But, you cannot deny that during those wars, the United States military treated prisoners like human beings and expected the same. There were atrocities committed but, the U.S. was proud of the way it dealt with POW's.

[/b][i]I am NOT using Clinton to excuse Bush for anything. I don't want to excuse Bush. He has done what he has done, and he will pay both history's price and Judgment's. All I am saying is that your statement regarding the beginnings of torture in the United States are incorrect. Bush did not start it. Even Clinton only started the current programs. We have been using torture for a long time.

[/i][b]You said that we have been using torture for a long time. Please back that up. Please explain also what you mean by Clinton starting the current program.
The CIA developed the "no touch" torture techniques, sleep deprivation, etc in the 1960's. These things were not used by our military. However, we had no problem using them for twenty some years in Central America to train the death squads to torture and kill tens of thousands of people. This was during the time when Reagan and Bush sr. were allowing the CIA to run drugs to fund the killers in Nicaragua. The last these things were used or utilized were from the early 90's until 9-11. This is not to say that we have not sent people to other countries to be tortured but, I really haven't heard of that until now.
[/b]
[i]I am not trying to excuse torture based on its tenure, either. Honestly, I thin I would prefer to err on the side of caution and not torture anyone. I am really glad that I am not the President, and that I never will be. However, I hate to see you use such immature, juvenile, impotent arguments against the issue. You are trying to stretch history. It will only stick as long as no one does any research. I know you may have been born in a lovely golden age when everyone [u]believed[/u] that the United States was Heaven on Earth, but regardless, it is not true, and flies in the face of the facts.

[/i][b]You refer to immature, juvenile, impotent arguments against the issue and you presume to know what I believed as far as a golden age and thought the U.S was heaven on earth. It is your age that would presume that. My entire life from my earliest memories started with the Cold War, the assassination of JFK, Civil rights riots with the country burning and students being shot by national guard, Assassination of Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy, Viet Nam, Watergate, hippie movement, women's liberation, drug culture etc etc etc. Most of it was not heaven but, this country still had power and status and respect. We have lost almost all of that. ALL we have left are nukes. So, please, I don't need to do a lot of research, I lived it. I have been politically active since I was 14 and that meant more than writing a letter. You do not know the facts so you can't tell me what is or is not true.
That is the problem. Those of us who grew up in the 50's and 60's. We did have a great child hood. We could run from morning to night with no fear. We were brought up in religious households. We respected our elders, we were not given every material thing on earth. We worked for what we wanted. The times grew dark but, our lives were good. Now, you may think that none of this in the past has anything to do with the now, that is your mistake. I am not stretching history, I know the history. So, I see the view that others have on MY COUNTRY and I am pi**ed off! Torture is one of those things that lower us in the eyes of God and lower us in the eyes of the world. THAT IS A FACT.
[/b]
[b]Read this and just maybe you will be able to really think about what it means to our future if the rest of the world is against us. It was written almost four years ago but, we have fallen even more since then.
[/b]
[url="http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0317/p04s01-usfp.html"]http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0317/p04s01-usfp.html[/url]


[i]This is another example of what I am talking about. The state of the economy after each president's terms has nothing to do with how many people they had tortured while in office. Why did you include this? It is irrelevant.

[/i][b]It is not relevant. Anytime I can show the massive difference between Rhodes Scholar Clinton and Monkey Boy Bush, I do. You brought Clinton's name into it so I felt compelled by my very nature to mention this. It may not be relevant to this discussion but trust me, it is very very relevant to our future.[/b]


[i][/quote]
[/i]
I', done for now. Have a nice day.

[SanctitasDeo]

[quote]Thank you for telling me twice. Yes, Europe liked us because we saved them from the Germans. Yes, it is good that we did. Were we some perfect country, even then? No, or we would have assisted them earlier on instead of waiting to be bombed at Pearl Harbor. Had the Japanese not bombed us, we would have sat out WWII. You do not have to tell me about the U.S. whitewashing its history. I was lucky enough to have been someone who learned early on what kind of liars and deceivers made up government. But, you cannot deny that during those wars, the United States military treated prisoners like human beings and expected the same. There were atrocities committed but, the U.S. was proud of the way it dealt with POW's.

[b]*blink* Well, this is a switch. Thank you, this is what I have been saying. [/b]

You said that we have been using torture for a long time. Please back that up. Please explain also what you mean by Clinton starting the current program.
The CIA developed the "no touch" torture techniques, sleep deprivation, etc in the 1960's. These things were not used by our military. However, we had no problem using them for twenty some years in Central America to train the death squads to torture and kill tens of thousands of people. This was during the time when Reagan and Bush sr. were allowing the CIA to run drugs to fund the killers in Nicaragua. The last these things were used or utilized were from the early 90's until 9-11. This is not to say that we have not sent people to other countries to be tortured but, I really haven't heard of that until now.

[b]I did provide some links, you know, a while ago. They should explain what I mean. And I could try and find more, if they are needed. [/b]

You refer to immature, juvenile, impotent arguments against the issue and you presume to know what I believed as far as a golden age and thought the U.S was heaven on earth. It is your age that would presume that. My entire life from my earliest memories started with the Cold War, the assassination of JFK, Civil rights riots with the country burning and students being shot by national guard, Assassination of Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy, Viet Nam, Watergate, hippie movement, women's liberation, drug culture etc etc etc. Most of it was not heaven but, this country still had power and status and respect. We have lost almost all of that. ALL we have left are nukes. So, please, I don't need to do a lot of research, I lived it. I have been politically active since I was 14 and that meant more than writing a letter. You do not know the facts so you can't tell me what is or is not true.
That is the problem. Those of us who grew up in the 50's and 60's. We did have a great child hood. We could run from morning to night with no fear. We were brought up in religious households. We respected our elders, we were not given every material thing on earth. We worked for what we wanted. The times grew dark but, our lives were good. Now, you may think that none of this in the past has anything to do with the now, that is your mistake. I am not stretching history, I know the history. So, I see the view that others have on MY COUNTRY and I am pi**ed off! Torture is one of those things that lower us in the eyes of God and lower us in the eyes of the world. THAT IS A FACT.

[b]I'm sorry. I shouldn't have continued that age-ignorance game that you started. I only made the same sort of assumptions about your life and knowledge that you seemed to be making about mine.

We had the respect of people who respected countries who torture, people who used torture themselves. That is not respect we really need. I'm pretty sure that the people of say, South America, never respected us much. [/b]

Read this and just maybe you will be able to really think about what it means to our future if the rest of the world is against us. It was written almost four years ago but, we have fallen even more since then.

[url="http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0317/p04s01-usfp.html"]http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0317/p04s01-usfp.html[/url]

[b]Thank you. That was interesting. It seems that Europe is finally standing up to the USA rather than following our lead.

And it seems that a lot of Muslims still believe the slander their leaders feed to them about both the USA and Europe.[/b][/quote]

Edited February 8, 2008 by SanctitasDeo

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Deb' post='1457559' date='Feb 8 2008, 01:14 PM']It is not relevant. Anytime I can show the massive difference between Rhodes Scholar Clinton and Monkey Boy Bush, I do. You brought Clinton's name into it so I felt compelled by my very nature to mention this. It may not be relevant to this discussion but trust me, it is very very relevant to our future.[/quote]

Mr Clinton should have been impeached and still in jail, and we wouldn't have the travesty of his wife running for office.
I will take a good man [President Bush] who makes mistakes over a criminal who occasionally does something right [Mr Clinton] ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

[dairygirl4u2c]

many things bush has done has been criminal.
some people consider clinton generally good.
too much "i feel it in my belly" arguments are being made.

Edited February 8, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Deb]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1457589' date='Feb 8 2008, 01:33 PM']Mr Clinton should have been impeached and still in jail, and we wouldn't have the travesty of his wife running for office.
I will take a good man [President Bush] who makes mistakes over a criminal who occasionally does something right [Mr Clinton] ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.[/quote]

I can see your point. Hmmm, Bush made mistakes. Which would those be? Lying to start a war so his buddies could get rich? Illegal wiretapping? Approving torture? Denying civil rights to citizens? Refusing to release documents to the courts to shield his gang from prosecution? Failing to respond after Katrina (they are still waiting) I could go on and on and on.
Hmmm. Clinton is a criminal because he lied about having a sexual encounter that was discovered via an illegal taped conversation. I will take the sex over the death any day. As for occasionally doing something right? Why don't you make a list of everything Bush has done right and I will make a list of what Clinton has done right and we can compare. Second thought, let's put every member of Congress under oath and ask them if they have ever had an extramarital affair. Oh, that may not be any of our business.
Bush is not a good man. He is barely a man.

[Deb]

I applaud your maturity, your good common sense, your literary style and your debating skills.

[Jaime]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1457589' date='Feb 8 2008, 01:33 PM']Mr Clinton should have been impeached and still in jail, and we wouldn't have the travesty of his wife running for office.
I will take a good man [President Bush] who makes mistakes over a criminal who occasionally does something right [Mr Clinton] ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.[/quote]

He was impeached and he was found not guilty


let's keep the facts straight

[Deb]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1457639' date='Feb 8 2008, 02:30 PM']He was impeached and he was found not guilty


let's keep the facts straight[/quote]


I still love ya! Your avatar is really freaking me out through..

[Deb]

[Double post. eek

Edited February 8, 2008 by Deb

[Jaime]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1457536' date='Feb 8 2008, 10:59 AM']what if there's a criminal in an intergation room, and all those police we've come to know don't rough them up to accomplish a goal?
any episode of 24 etc you'll see this when it's needed, in rare occasions.



batman and robin were chasing a crook, but had to let him get away when he ran across the street. Batman insisted that they proceed to the nearest corner and wait for the "cross" signal instead of following the jaywalking bad guy.
this almost, though not necessarily depending on the person's motives.... smacks of unbridled egotism. "the ends never justify the means" are saying that they prize the sanctity of their own consciences (i'm almost certain if they're honest) above all else, including the lives of innocents. "sorry, ma'am, about your little girl. at least her death goes to show what fine, upstanding, moral people we police are. i hope that's some consolation." yeah...[/quote]


Dairy the difference between you and I is that I do not get my moral teachings from watching tv

[Deb]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1457648' date='Feb 8 2008, 02:34 PM']Dairy the difference between you and I is that I do not get my moral teachings from watching tv[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

***Dairy the difference between you and I is that I do not get my moral teachings from watching tv***

yeah you get it from fantasy land.... "i get it from the 2000 year old teacher, blah blah blah boo yeah"

i know what i said is mean... but that's same as you've said to me, and that's what catholics tend to do way too much to none catholics. do you like getting made fun for when people say you live in fantasy land with your church? if not, you shouldn't be saying things like that.
not just you, but this phorum in particular and catholics in general.

[Deb]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1457740' date='Feb 8 2008, 04:07 PM']***Dairy the difference between you and I is that I do not get my moral teachings from watching tv***

yeah you get it from fantasy land.... "i get it from the 2000 year old teacher, blah blah blah boo yeah"

i know what i said is mean... but that's same as you've said to me, and that's what catholics tend to do way too much to none catholics. do you like getting made fun for when people say you live in fantasy land with your church? if not, you shouldn't be saying things like that.
not just you, but this phorum in particular and catholics in general.[/quote]


You were kind of asking for that comment by using Batman and Robin and 24 for examples. They aren't real.
People kind of attack me on a regular basis. I am just used to it and sometimes, I enjoy it.
Have you seen my Lederhosen?

[Jaime]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1457740' date='Feb 8 2008, 04:07 PM']***Dairy the difference between you and I is that I do not get my moral teachings from watching tv***

yeah you get it from fantasy land.... "i get it from the 2000 year old teacher, blah blah blah boo yeah"

i know what i said is mean... but that's same as you've said to me, and that's what catholics tend to do way too much to none catholics. do you like getting made fun for when people say you live in fantasy land with your church? if not, you shouldn't be saying things like that.
not just you, but this phorum in particular and catholics in general.[/quote]


Oh now come on Dairy

I hope you've seen that I've been one of... scratch that... you're biggest supporter through the years. I've been a fan of your polls (and you gotta admit you've had some pretty bizarre ones).

I think you're intelligent. I don't think you're a troll. And I honestly think that you're seeking the truth.

But as a supporter and as a fan of your polls, I gotta tell you you are off the mark on your scenarios when it comes to torture. These crazy scenarios where somebody's got my kids locked up in an underground vault that will explode in three hours blah blah blah. And then to back it up with Batman and 24?

You're smarter than that. And you're better at debate than that.

I meant what I said. You want to get into a thoughtful debate on moral relativism (which all of this boils down to) then I'm game. I'm sure a few others would be game as well.