My Theories

[Oik]

Your distinction between homosexual acts/lusts and homosexual attacks is correct.

I can understand why you might think that I worded my explanation wrong, but in fact I did not. Nor am I confused. Go back and read your first line:

CCC

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex.

I don't add any emphasis, however I believe that it's clear of what I am referring to. It's clear that when speaking of Homosexuality, one is referring to the act.

I don't think you are talking about that though. I believe that you are talking about your personal struggles with lustful thoughts.

I'd also like to mention that I also am afflicted with demonic attacks of lustful thought, sometimes in the form of the extreme distortion that is homosexuality.

I would also warn you that to associate your identity with homosexuality is to say that you are homosexual (which I have concluded through your posts that you are not). Your identity is Christ, that is why you are Christian.

Again to clarify, the term homosexuality refers to the acts (and/or active lustful thoughts there of). This does not refer to our Blessed sexuality that is willed by God, that is the True sexuality, man and woman.

I am a little troubled though. I am assuming that you are male?

God loves you and I love you. I'll pray for you. :)

Edited February 20, 2004 by Oik

[smeagol]

before i get too involved in my 'theory' on homosexuality and my response to previous comments, i want to notify lundercovera that my prayers are with you and i am in awe of your approach to the topic. my views on homosexuality may seem biased in some way and i may seem like i make it sound all to easy. my advice of refraining from it may seem like it is demanding a whole lot - it may almost seem that it would mean to deny who you think you are. but imho, i think it must be done. and i think you know deep down that it must be done too.

i must concur that homosexuality is indeed a choice -- or at the very least, whether or not an individual partakes in homosexual actions is indeed a choice of the individual's freewill

God would not make gay people if He thought they were sinful. God however may make people who have the tendency or potential to become gay if they so pleased. God did not make us sinful -- we brought this upon ourselves. thus, the core of our essence (or our 'soul') cannot be sinful unless we make it so. therefore, God did not make you gay 'deep down.' nobody is born sinful - if someone was born sinful, this would mean God made a faulty creation and that is impossible. He made all of us -His clay pots - for a certain reason. we cannot begin to understand why He made us the way he did, but we can realize our function and what he wants us to achieve or how he wants us to behave. He would never ask something of us of which we were uncapable of fulfilling. Jesus would not have told the paralyzed man to get up and walk if he really couldn't have been able to. but even though our entire sense of reality would conclude that it was impossible for that man to walk, it was possible with Jesus -- just like all other things are through Him.

i dont buy the 'psychological disorder' or the 'polarization' rubbish. this is not about your past experiences - it's about the choices you make in the present.

i like to think of homosexuality as not being genetic but being born with varying degrees of tendencies towards the same sex. you may have a tougher time resisting boys than i do but that doesnt mean you oughtnt try your hardest to resist those urges.

i'm sure you've heard some research that some madmen are biologically programmed to have a more violent approach to solving their problems. it may be tougher for them to resist hurting someone else than it is for you to resist that same urge, but it would be wrong/sinful for either of you to commit that act. it's tough not to use the excuse "well, i was born with more of this inclination than the rest of you, so i am allowed to take part in said activity." tough beans! that's the hand you've been dealt and it smells of elderberries. it may seem arbitrary but you know that it is according to some Master plan, so dont give up and know that you must do what you know you must do. you've got to try harder than the rest of us at not doing gay acts but just as we must refrain from those activities, so must you.

[vianney]

You should talk to hyperdulia he has struggled with this and can you give you valuable information.

Pax

[Guest lundercovera]

oik and smeagol, thanks for the advice. yeah i'm a male, i'm in highschool. in fact, i'm in school right now.

vianney, i do talk to hyper. he's been absent resently though.

anyway, i don't believe that if i was created that way it in any way means i must act on it.

http://couragerc.net/

have you seen them before. i saw em on EWTN once, and i recall them talking about in some cases psychology and stuff is the correct choice to correct this, but in some cases it is not changable. i believe that the tendency can be either biological or psychological, and the psychological is the majority of those who go into the lifestyle nowadays. but there has always been homosexuals, and the cause remains largely unexplained as the Catechism says.

anyway, i don't just experience attacks. i like boys. sometimes i have lustful thoughts about them, sometimes i don't, but not a day goes by where i dont LIKE them and deep down wish i could date one.

i don't just want lust, i want love. and i know that homosexual love is inherently disordered and unnatural and i could never seek it out, but my only temptation is not just lust, but desire for love.

anyway, because of my deep-set attraction that is more than just physical, i don't see myself as someone who can be changed in order to not be 'homosexual' (homosexual as in attracted to other men) oik, you say you have attacks of it, stay strong through them. it is possible that you have a psychological thing or demonic that causes them, or both, the demonic can cause psychological disorders. but i don't think we have the same sort of thing. like i said, i don't just have attacks, my very inner being longs for a boy's love. the same way a hetero would long to date a girl, kiss, one day marry and do things that married ppl do..

anyway, if i was born this way, it doesn't mean God created a flawed creation. are ppl born with cancer a flawed creation? sometimes cancer can't be cured, they were born with it, so they don't give into the cancer but at the same time can't deny they have it.

[Oik]

I'll continue praying for you.

[twf]

undercovera, I'll be praying for you as well. I think it's a miracle...the work of the Spirit...that you are willing to resist your sexual desires. There are many cases where homosexuals have later, with the help of Christ, married a member of the opposite sex, after confronting their sinful lifestyle. I'm not saying this will be the case with you...perhaps, like you said, God has celibacy in store for you (which is something the Apostle Paul spoke VERY high of, see 1 Corinthians 7).

I disagree with Smeagol. It is true that God creates us, and that God would not creat us flawed...but because we live in a fallen world, and because we are the seed of sinful/fallen Adam...God allows corruptions (like cancer in an infant) to seep in, but always for a purpose (though it wouldn't happen at all in a perfect world). The Bible tells us that we are conceived in sin (Ps 51:5). We are not sinners when we are conceived, for we have not yet sinned...but we do inherit a sinful nature from Adam---a tendency to sin. (See Romans 5:12-20). We are born spiritually dead because of our first parents...we need to be regenerated by the Spirit when we receive the sacrament of baptism.

Anyway, regarding the root of your homosexual tendencies, there is an interesting article you may want to read found at http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/...9n1_homosex.asp. (This isn't a Catholic site...it's Evangelical Protestant, but it's still a good article!)

Edited February 23, 2004 by twf

[Good Friday]

lundercovera writes:

i don't just want lust, i want love. and i know that homosexual love is inherently disordered and unnatural and i could never seek it out, but my only temptation is not just lust, but desire for love.

I know what you meant by this, but I wanted to clarify. Love is never disordered. Homosexual sex is disordered, but love can never be disordered. Even homosexual love is not disordered, in my opinion, as long as it is not expressed in a disordered way -- i.e. through homosexual sex. In other words, I believe it is entirely possible to love someone of the same sex romantically and those feelings not be disordered, provided that you don't express those feelings through disordered means.

This is not to say that I'm encouraging a non-sexual homosexual relationship. Disordered or not, it would still be an occasion to sin and just not a good idea. I'm just saying that I don't think romantic love for someone of the same sex is inherently disordered, nor do I think the Church teaches that. The catechism does not refer to homosexual love as disordered, but it does refer to homosexual acts as disordered. There is a difference.

I make this distinction because I believe that love is supernatural, and thus that the laws of nature don't necessarily apply to it. For instance, it is not natural for one to love God so much that one chooses to be celibate. The natural order is for one to be fruitful and multiply. In some sense, celibacy could be considered disordered, because it isn't in line with the natural order. Unlike homosexual sex, though, celibacy is an approved "disorder" because it can lead to greater love for God and humanity, and greater service to both. Homosexual sex never leads to these ends.

I could be off on some of this, but it seems to me that it's best to refer to homosexual sex as disordered, but possibly not to refer to homosexual feelings of love as disordered. But I could be wrong. If I am, I submit to the authority of the Mystical Body of Christ, and I hope if someone knows me to be wrong on this they'll correct me.

[Guest lundercovera]

thanx for the insight nathan.

But I could be wrong. If I am, I submit to the authority of the Mystical Body of Christ,

i'm glad you're obedience is so strong! keep it up

anyway, it's all kinda confusing. if i were to fall in love with a boy, i wouldn't want a non-sexual romantic relationship of course cuz it'd be a matter of sin. but if homosexual love isn't disordered, which it seems not to be because love would not be disordered, how is it to be expressed? a buddy type relationship, not romantic? is that what the Catechism means by "disinterested" friendships..?

i wouldn't call celibacy "disordered" nor even "unnatural" rather "supernatural" or "extra-ordered" hehe now i'm makin up words. just because something isn't natural or in the natural order doesn't make it unatural, cuz with celibacy it is more of a hyperelevated form of the natural order, fathering many spiritual children, having a faith that is fruitful and multiplies among your congregation. it is keeping with the natural order on a higher level, so supernatural describes it better i think.

a homosexual inclination is refered to as objectively disordered (CCC 2358) so i would venture to say homosexual romantic relationships would be disordered, but true love for one of the same sex is not disordered, but it is most often shown through disordered means. love for one of the same sex is a product of something disorderd that is beyond control, but the love itself cannot be disordered, it just should not be shown in a disordered way, ie by a romantic relationship.

is that right? :cool:

[Good Friday]

lundercovera writes:

but if homosexual love isn't disordered, which it seems not to be because love would not be disordered, how is it to be expressed?

"Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down is life for his friend." - John 15:13.

I think that, at least in my case, the best way to express love for another man that I may feel for romantically is to be his friend in Christ, but to never allow myself to get close enough that either he or I would sin -- even if this meant eventually having to distance myself from him. All real love is rooted in sacrifice, and an authentic expression of this kind of love would also have to be rooted in sacrifice. At least, it seems that way to me.

St. Paul tells us that "charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely, is not puffed up, is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil: rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth: beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things" (1 Cor 13:4-7). (Sorry about the "eths," I prefer the Douay-Rheims Bible because I believe it's closer to the Vulgate. The downside is that it's very old, and has a lot of "eths" and such, but such is necessary until modern people decide to get as close to the Vulgate without the "eths").

Anyway, the point is that real love -- the supernatural kind of love, God's love, charity -- is not self-serving in any way. It's the kind of love that Jesus showed on the Cross. Real love embraces the Cross. Real love concerns itself with others before one's self. So basically, real love would not allow another person to become an occasion to sin, first of all because this objectifies the person, and second of all because it endangers not only your soul, but the other person's soul. Consider this: You have a friend that you're attracted to or have fallen in love with. You go to play basketball with said friend. He takes off his shirt, and this causes you to lust after him. This causes you to sin. Not only does this sin damage your soul and your relationship with God, but he (your friend) may also be somewhat culpable for having removed the shirt, especially if he knows how you feel. This may seem miniscule, but it isn't. Depending on how much you dwell on the lust, whether or not it's in passing or you let yourself focus on it, it is at least a venial sin and may be a mortal sin. In other words, you have either hurt your relationship with God (venial sin) or separated yourself from God (mortal sin). And depending upon his culpability, he may have committed at least a venial sin by leading you into temptation. Two relationships with God damaged. This is not love in the Catholic sense, though it may seem like love in the world's sense of the word.

Real love would say things like this to you: "Maybe I shouldn't see him until I can get my feelings under control, since I don't want to hurt my relationship with God or his." If this isn't going through your head, then (in my layperson opinion), this is not real love in the Catholic sense, and it certainly isn't charity. Scripture and Tradition make clear that authentic love and authentic expressions of love are rooted in sacrifice. We see authentic expressions of love in the examples of St. Maximilian Kolbe, Bl. Mother Teresa, and of course Christ Himself is the greatest example. Real love concerns itself above all with yours and others' relationships with God, and second of all with the well-being of others -- the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual well-being of others.

The true test, not just for homosexuals but for anyone, is whether or not what you feel is "love" is self-serving. If it's more self-serving than selfless, then it very likely is not really love. If it's a sacrificing kind of love, the kind of love that Christ, His Blessed Mother, and the saints have shown, then it probably is real love. There is a litmus test. Love doesn't have to be this abstract concept that brings on fluffy bunny feelings. I doubt Mother Teresa was having fluffy bunnies as she cared for lepers in Calcutta. Nevertheless, no one can deny that what she was doing was one of the highest forms of love. I believe that love is not just a feeling, but a state of being.

To conclude, I think homosexual love should be expressed as any love should be expressed: in a sacrificial, selfless manner. I think any means of expressing love that is not sacrificial and selfless is a "disordered" expression of love -- and that doesn't just apply to homosexuals, but to everyone.