My Theories

[Guest lundercovera]

i have been really thinking about this and have come to two possible solutions as to the cause of my tendency towards the same sex. one is it's biological, i will always be homosexual and if i were to try to do anything otherwise i'd be supressing it and messing myself up mentally. this one i can't seem to escape, it seems to be too true.

my other theory is in my devolopement. i was watching ArchBishop Fulton J Sheen talkin about like, courting, or something, but first he went through all the stages in life before that. one of the stages was a really young age 'seperation.' he said this is where a sort of polarization happens, kinda like + and - charges. boys play with boys hating the girls, girls play with girls hating the boys, then by the time they like each other they're so different that it's all new and exiting and attracting to them. anyway, i kinda want this to be true, cuz it would give me a way out-- go to a psychiatrist presto chango, i'm cured. but the only evidence i can pull from it is that in my neighborhood i hung out with both sides periodically in my younger age when the boys and girls were seperated into groups. i sorted switched off and on, so i did end up spending about half of my time in that developement stage playing with the girls side. but eventually, i actually broke away from that and started a second smaller boys group kinda unattached to either side. i'm having a hard time seeing that as causing my current condition.

anyway, those are my two theories. pray for me please.

[Lil Red]

prayers going up for you.

[Guest lundercovera]

thanx red.

anyone have any thoughts?

[Carrie]

I don't know enough to give advice regarding what you're going through, but I am praying for you.

[M.SIGGA]

Therefore, that I might not become too elated, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, an angel of Satan, to beat me, to keep me from being too elated.

8

Three times I begged the Lord about this, that it might leave me,

9

but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness." I will rather boast most gladly of my weaknesses, in order that the power of Christ may dwell with me.

10

Therefore, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and constraints, for the sake of Christ; for when I am weak, then I am strong. 

Lundercovera, I posted this once before and I'm going to post it again to remind you of the message (2Corinthians12) because this is one of my favorite sequences in the Bible. St Paul is struggling and suffering with something and he is begging God to rid him of the torture. The Bible doesn't specify what that particular "thorn" is I think so everyone can identify with the message - it could have just as well have been a bad temper to prejudice feelings to homosexual thoughts; it is a mystery and no one really knows for sure. No matter I can't imagine what you might be going through, but take heed that God's grace purifies in suffering, even with this ''thorn'' you are bearing right now, and we are never tempted to the point where it is more than we can bear. Continue your fight against these temptation and always remeber you are a loved child of God. I'll remember you in prayer. God Bless :)

[Guest lundercovera]

Mother Angelica said we were all sex obsessed, that could very well have just been talking about seizures.. she gave context to support that. hehe w/e it all works

anyway, thanx for the prayers and Bible quotes and such... anyone have any thoughts on the theory of polarization. even if this was true, does that mean i can then be 'changed' without bad psychological effects? i'm sure that if this is biological, something i really think it is but i don't want it to be, then it would cause bad psychological effects to try to get rid of it. but if this explanation is real, i really want it to be but that could be me just tryin to squeam away from my cross. i don't know. anyway, what r your thoughts?

[IrishG8s]

First off, My prayers are going out for you, were going to storm heaven for ya. I think it's really cool that your dealing with it in such a way you are. I have other theories if you wouldl like to here it. It's just an idea, but sometimes homesexuallity comes on from a seperation of a manly figure in you childhood, and you don't have that figure their to love properly, and when your grown up you want to feel that love from a man because it would make you feel complete. But I will pray for you. Just remember that God is up their and he wants to wrap you in his arms and just love you, a truly manly person who will love you back in return.( I don't want that to sound wrong so please don't take it the wrong way) He's the ultimate healer. But definatly stay chaste and God will reward you for you perseverance. Love and prayers going out for ya bro!

blessings

-IG-

[M.SIGGA]

Since polarization is a theory and the human mind is so vast and complex there is a percentage that this might be true, but what might be most important to consider is that it is another form of temptation, based on where Satan knows that we are weak. Psychology has a lot of holes in it, so it's not always the most reliable. Keep in mind the verse from St. Paul I posted and remember God hears our pleas and appeals to Him and He faithfully answers us not too early or just too late but always on time. Keep praying for a pure heart and please pray for me to have one too.

[Oik]

I know that it can be difficult to even understand the issue of homosexuality today.

I know all to well. My Mother and father (both catholics) obtained a "divorce" over my mothers choice to actively pursue her own homosexual desires.

I also work in a coffee shop in which I am surronded by a sub-culture of pseudo intellectualism that is very liberal and all but fosters things such as Abortion, homosexuality, pornography, strong ANTI-Catholic sentiment, relativism (both moral and societal), embryonic (sp?) stem cell research, etc., etc.

First, I am warning you about the idea that homosexuality is "genetic condition." This leads to the assumption that love is programed (sp) and that we aren't able to choose who we fall in love with. This is DANGEROUS! Love is a choice. If you want proof, look at any crucifix. Jesus made the choice to die for us because He CHOSE to love us.

Second, there is no such thing as homo or hetero sexuality, there is just True sexuality.Homosexuality is merely the distortion of sexuality and is an attempt by Satan to destroy and consume.

Here is a logical flow of thought:

How do you know if someone is Gay?

Answer: Who they want to have sex with.

You see, you can't just look at someone and know they are gay. Being gay is an act. I have spoken to at least one openly gay guy who revealed to me being gay is about having gay sex.

Also, consider this. Jesus said in the Bible that the one who lusts in his mind , has already commited adultery!

The Truth is that choosing to be gay and struggling with sin are not the same. Many amesome Saints (aka hereos) were deeply afflicted with demonic attacks of lust and sex.

There is a beautiful story about Saint Francis that goes like this:

Saint Francis was deeply afflicted with demonic attacks of Lust and sex. He prayed and prayed. Not wanting to offend God, in act of desperation, he ran outside and spotted a large rosebush full thorn and cast himself into the bush and rolled around in to until the attacks ceased. To this day, the earth is bare in the area in which Saint Francis rolled in.

I was watching Mother Angelica classics (amesome) and she said something that struck me like a bolt of lighting, she said, "God cares about our thoughts." I was blown a way!

The reality is that homosexuality is a sin, along with others is now openly embraced and encouraged in society. The mentality that was prophesised(sp) by so many at the turn of the century (relativism, that you do what ever is right for you along as you do bother me, that is okay) is destroying our families, our society, and our logic.

Let us give glory to God in our suffering and thanksgiving in our praise of Him.

:)

[BLAZEr]

Whatever the reason you have to beg Christ. Like the man born blind, you too could have been born with this. I don't know, I don't care . . . you have to beg Christ to heal you . . . you have to beg him like the man born blind, a man without any hope to ever see . . . and yet Christ touches him and he is given sight!

Your healing might not be a complete lack of homosexual desire, but eitherway, only Christ can give you the completeness that you need. Only he will teach you how to see yourself and to see others in a way that is pure and holy.

undercover, you know that I love you and you know that I am praying like crazy for you, and I know that you're praying like crazy too . . .

KEEP BEGGING! Ask Christ to fulfill your deepest desires. Ask him for a companion in this struggle, someone who will, if necessary, carry you like the paralytic and drop you in from the ceiling to meet Christ.

Christ can heal you. You have to beg and then be open to the healing the way Christ wants you to have it.

Often in the Christian life, the source of our biggest destruction becomes the means of our cure. This affliction might be how you're gonna become a saint. Just pray to Christ that you can always carry this cross until He Himself takes it from you.

Prayers from me to you.

[Laudate_Dominum]

lundercover,

I don't know that much about the forms of therapy that exist for dealing with same-sex attraction. But I do know that the concept of repression is often misused.

For Freud repression is seen as the basis of neurosis. Basically what happens (by Freud's theory) is that some psychic contents or emotion is "buried alive" and becomes resident in the unconscious where it manifests itself by neurotic tendencies of some kind. For example a person with a fear of cookies (I'm making this example up) might feel crazy because they have this neurosis where everytime they see cookies they experience anxiety, panic, etc.. and they don't understand why. So Freud's method would seek, through various means (dream interpretation, psycho-analysis, etc) to determine the underlying unconscious conflict and deal with it head on. So in this made up case of the cookie-phobia, perhaps the person was abused as a child while eating cookies so the sight of cookies triggers the neurosis.

I'm being kind of simplistic because I'm just trying to make a point.

The error in the pop-psychology idea of repression is that any denial of your passions or inclinations will be psychologically destructive and lead to neurosis. Not only is this entirely incompatible with Catholicism since self-denial and asceticism are a basic part of it, but it is bad psychology too. There are endless situations in which the healthy thing to do is deny an inclination or emotion. This is not repressive in the true sense of the word. It is a part of possessing oneself and attaining self-mastery and virtue. For example if someone has a strong tendency to eat until they are gorged whenever they have pizza they should deny themself if they wish to avoid gluttony (and obesity) and attain the virtue of temperance. It is the healthy thing to do.

The major difference between self-denial and repression is that in repression the inclination or psychic contents are ignored and pushed out of consciousness, whereas in self-denial they are faced head-on and conquered through repeated acts of the will (and God's grace).

Now the case of a homosexual incination is a bit different than eating too much pizza. You would be right to fear repressing it because it would likely manifest itself unconsciously. I suppose this would be a basic part of psychotherapy for same-sex attraction- identifying some past trauma or developmental defect which may have a causal influence on the same-sex attraction. I imagine in easy cases the person could resolve issues (maybe sexual abuse issues, developmental issues, relationship with parents, self-image, etc.) and overcome same-sex attraction. But surely it is not always that simple. Some people may never overcome this tendency, but they should still practice chastity and purity since fornication and lust are sins regardless of one's orientation.

I know there are good Catholic psychologists out there who specialize in same-sex attraction. When I was in school one came and gave a series of talks (which I missed, doh!) about where all the theories stand on the causes of same-sex attraction, and also methods of therapy for dealing with it, etc..

If I can find out more about this I will let you know.

Peace

Edited February 19, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[Laudate_Dominum]

And if straigh people can develop a same-sex attraction (it happens all the time), why can't a gay person develop an opposite-sex attraction?

Or even if a person who had same-sex attraction never lost that impulse, if they could also have an attraction toward the opposite sex (be bi-sexual I guess), they could deny the gay tendency and still be able to pusue marriage with a person of the opposite sex and have babies and all that. I'm sure plenty of married people out there are only mostly heterosexual.

The point I'm trying to make is there is always hope, even if the homosexual tendency is never totally removed.

Some people are happily married but struggle with all sorts of things that they have to deny all there lives. A friend of mine is an alchoholic and he can't even have one beer because he says he'll loose it and wreck his life. Beer is everywhere in our society (tv, signs, stores, etc), it is a constant struggle for him. Other people are married but struggle with pornography addiction and have to fight that all through their lives (yes, pornography can wreck a marriage).

And some people are happily married and struggle with fidelity. I imagine plenty of people are intensely attracted to people who are not their spouse, and they can't help it, but they remain faithful, they remain chaste and loyal.

I don't know if this helps but it's something I was just thinking about.

Edited February 19, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[Guest lundercovera]

#1 homosexuality is not a sin, it's a temptation. homosexual acts are sinful, homosexual lustful thoughts are sinful. sexual thoughts are not sinful, but when you take them and make them your own, dwell upon them and gain pleasure from them, it becomes LUSTING after something, instead of just having a natural sexual desire

anyway, it's not just about gay sex for me. in fact, i haven't looked at porn or masturbated in a long while. but i have a desire for relationships with boys. i would even be willing to have chaste relationships with boys... i just want a boy to love, date, talk to, hug and maybe even kiss. why don't i go seek something like that, it'd be a near occasion of sin for me i guess. also because the Catechism says that although Homosexuality is largely unexplained, it is inherently disordered.

i think i heard somewhere here on PhatMass that a study was done that about 2% of gay ppl in this country are gay by biological disorder, while the rest are results of psychological disorders. i can believe that. but the more and more i try to figure out whether or not this is a psychological disorder the more and more i see nothing really in my past that could have brought it about. this polarization thing is grasping at straws hoping for a way out.

i don't think suppressing all passions is repressing something. but i do think that if the biological makeup of my body (and God help me i can't help but think the makeup of my soul too, but i have to be wrong about that) makes me attracted to boys, going out with girls, getting a psychologist to make me exchange one lust for another will just completely screw me up, i'll be lusting after girls while deep down i really want love and affection from boys.

i believe in certain cases it is psychological, and prolly the majority of cases in this country at least. however, i also think for some it is a deep down part of who they are. it can't all be blanketed over as a psychological disorder. some of it's truly part of some people.

anyway, ppl keep tryin to tell me not to define myself by my sexuality. i'm not though. but the fact is, i kinda do have a sexuality. my entire being longs for a relationship with a boy, not necessarily with sex involved unless it was a lifelong relationship, but that is my desire. to meet a boy, fall in love for life, and maybe reach the point of having sex. God help me, that is not only what i emotionally want, it's deep down who i am to want to date boys.

i don't believe it's wise to assume all homosexuality is a psychological disorder, it can in many cases be unchangeable, and i think it's an easy trap we could fall into to convert all the gays and marry them off to girls. not all people are called to marriage, and i believe those who truly carry the cross of a life-long biological homosexuality (which according to that report i can't substantiate, is about 2% of gays in this country) are called to the single vocation

CCC

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

by the virtues of self-mastery that teach inner freedom, by prayer and sacramental grace, by disinterested friendships of my priest and 2 close Catholic friends, i gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. notice it didn't say by the virtues of self mastery et. al. they will one day be attracted to girls again.

i honestly think it would be completely unfair to any girl if i went into a relationship with such problems, expecially if they were biological. because if it is part of my biological makeup which is not impossible and i can't see any other cause for me, then to be in a relationship with a woman would be a sham and a sin against the institution of marriage and marital love. i'm seein a single life in my future unless i determine this to be a psychological scar, and only then will i seek a change of it. it is not always changeable by psychology, sometimes it's biological. it is always changeable by prayer, anything is, and that will depend on how long God wants me to carry this cross

[Laudate_Dominum]

Wow! thanks lundercover. You seem to have a very realistic and positive attitude. The things I posted were just thoughts and ideas. I wasn't trying to give counsel specific to your situation since I did not know the specifics and would not presume to pry into it.

And I certainly realize that having a homosexual inclination is not a sin. I apologize if what I said came off sounding that way. That would be heresy. :)

[Guest lundercovera]

Wow! thanks lundercover. You seem to have a very realistic and positive attitude. The things I posted were just thoughts and ideas. I wasn't trying to give counsel specific to your situation since I did not know the specifics and would not presume to pry into it.

And I certainly realize that having a homosexual inclination is not a sin. I apologize if what I said came off sounding that way. That would be heresy.

thanx. it wasn't you that came off that way, i think oik's a lil confused about that... either that or he just worded it wrong

The reality is that homosexuality is a sin, along with others is now openly embraced and encouraged in society

i'll agree with that if 'homosexuality' is changed to 'homosexual lustful thoughts and/or actions'

and i kinda don't like writing the words i write, because i don't want them to be true in my case. however, i know they are, it would just make it alot easier if i could just be cured. i think that's why when i heard Archbishop Sheen on TV talk about that i started trying to apply that to my life.

any more thoughts about my first post or my last one :unsure: