Illegal Immigration Viewed Through The Prism Of Faith

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1455231' date='Feb 4 2008, 06:35 AM']But where would we deport the silly people? Who would determine who is silly?[/quote]

Looks like a job for the ministry of silly walks.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1455231' date='Feb 4 2008, 06:35 AM']But where would we deport the silly people? Who would determine who is silly?[/quote]

Looks like a job for the ministry of silly walks.

[Dismas]

I've worked for years with numerous immigrants, most of whom were from Mexico. I'm rather certain that a good number of them were illegal.

I also belonged to a Catholic parish that changed over from German/Italian to Mexican as the predominant membership.

What I have noticed is this:

- First generation Hispanic immigrants are more often "cultural Catholics" than practicing, though the split is close to even. The youth minister at my former parish once told me, "Most become members to have their children baptized, then you never see them again."

- Mexican Catholicism is especially fragile. Consider that a nation that was almost entirely Catholic allowed the 1917 Constitution of Mexico and the numerous bloody martyrdoms of Catholic priests, religious, and laity to transpire. The Church to this day is ever in danger as secularists spread their hate, and paint Catholicism as a continuation of Spanish dominance.

[url="http://catholicinsight.com/online/features/article_748.shtml"]http://catholicinsight.com/online/features/article_748.shtml[/url]

- Due to the ravages of "Liberation Theology", many Hispanics are drawn to Protestant-Nationalist churches, both here and abroad.

No, I don't believe that illegal immigration is helping Catholicize the US, rather it is helping the Protestantism make further inroads.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Dismas

[rkwright]

[quote name='Dismas' post='1455308' date='Feb 4 2008, 10:19 AM']I've worked for years with numerous immigrants, most of whom were from Mexico. I'm rather certain that a good number of them were illegal.

I also belonged to a Catholic parish that changed over from German/Italian to Mexican as the predominant membership.

What I have noticed is this:

- First generation Hispanic immigrants are more often "cultural Catholics" than practicing, though the split is close to even. The youth minister at my former parish once told me, "Most become members to have their children baptized, then you never see them again."

- Mexican Catholicism is especially fragile. Consider that a nation that was almost entirely Catholic allowed the 1917 Constitution of Mexico and the numerous bloody martyrdoms of Catholic priests, religious, and laity to transpire. The Church to this day is ever in danger as secularists spread their hate, and paint Catholicism as a continuation of Spanish dominance.

[url="http://catholicinsight.com/online/features/article_748.shtml"]http://catholicinsight.com/online/features/article_748.shtml[/url]

- Due to the ravages of "Liberation Theology", many Hispanics are drawn to Protestant-Nationalist churches, both here and abroad.

No, I don't believe that illegal immigration is helping Catholicize the US, rather it is helping the Protestantism make further inroads.[/quote]

I have to agree 100%....

[CatherineM]

I wonder how many of you have ever stepped foot in Mexico, and if you have, did you ever get farther than 10 feet from the resort in Cancun/Puerto Vallarta where everyone speaks English?

Go to the shrine and watch the elderly women walk on their knees across the cobbles. How many of you have had a Hispanic in your home to dinner? The M-13's are from El Salvador, not Mexico, and they prey primarily on the Hispanic community, especially taking advantage of illegals who are afraid to go to the police.

What would Jesus have said about how we treat and talk about these people? Quote me a bible passage or CCC passage where it says it is okay to hate and fear people based on their nationality, language or culture. You guys jump up to defend the unborn, and rightly so, but these are human beings too. Calling them illegal as a way of separating them out from our society so it is okay to be prejudiced against them, should sicken us all.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1455436' date='Feb 4 2008, 04:03 PM']I wonder how many of you have ever stepped foot in Mexico, and if you have, did you ever get farther than 10 feet from the resort in Cancun/Puerto Vallarta where everyone speaks English?

Go to the shrine and watch the elderly women walk on their knees across the cobbles. How many of you have had a Hispanic in your home to dinner? The M-13's are from El Salvador, not Mexico, and they prey primarily on the Hispanic community, especially taking advantage of illegals who are afraid to go to the police.

What would Jesus have said about how we treat and talk about these people? Quote me a bible passage or CCC passage where it says it is okay to hate and fear people based on their nationality, language or culture. You guys jump up to defend the unborn, and rightly so, but these are human beings too. Calling them illegal as a way of separating them out from our society so it is okay to be prejudiced against them, should sicken us all.[/quote]

Americans who wish to defend they're nation from those that disrepect our laws are not racist.


[url="http://www.jimmyakin.org/2006/03/immigration_cat.html"]Immigration & Catholic Teaching[/url]

(Jimmy Akin)

The subject of immigration is heating up. With the presence of more than ten million people illegally in the United States--or three percent of the total population--many citizens are concerned enough that we seem to be building toward a breaking point on this subject.

As a result of all the news stories on this topic, I've had requests to explain the Church's teaching in this area.

Sometimes folks receive the impression that Church teaching requires essentially an open-border policy where people can come into a country with no restraints, but this is not true. If you read the actual Church documents on the subject, they contain important qualifiers that are often dropped out of the discussion when presented by some individuals.

Here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say:

[indent]2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, [b]to the extent they are able[/b], to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate [b]subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption.[/b] Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, [b]to obey its laws[/b] and to assist in carrying civic burdens.[/indent]

I've highlighted three important qualifiers that are often dropped out in this discussion.

The first recognizes that there is a limit to the number of immigrants that a nation can absorb. Common sense tells you this: No nation can absorb an unlimited number of immigrants.

Precisely how many a particular country can reasonably absorb is a determination that must ultimately be made by the laity, who are charged with ordering the temporal affairs of society and suffusing them with the Christian spirit.

The laity are not served in this task by individuals who speak as if Catholic teaching requires an open border policy that does not recognize that there is a limit to the number of immigrants that a country can reasonably absorb or the responsibility of the laity in making the practical determination of what this number is.

The second qualifier that I have highlighted recognizes the state's right to set legal requirements that must be met for immigration.

Again, this is something that common sense would tell you needs to be there. A state cannot reasonably be expected to absorb immigrants of any and all types. For example, a state may reasonably refuse immigration to murderers or terrorists--to name two very obvious examples.

Ultimately, it is the laity via their role in ordering the temporal affairs of society to determine, in the case of a particular country, what the reasonable conditions are to which immigration to their nation should be subject.

As before, the laity are not served in this task by those who would advocate an open borders policy that fails to recognize the state's right to set conditions on immigration and the laity's responsibility to determine in practice what those requirements are to be.

The third qualifier that I have highlighted reflects the duty of immigrants to respect the laws of the nation to which they are immigrating.

This includes respecting the laws of the nation regarding whether or not the person is able legally to be in the country.

Immigrants are morally bound to respect the laws of the nation to which they are immigrating, including its laws regarding whether they may legally be there.

Discussion of this subject is not served by those who speak as if this were not the case.

Church teaching on immigration thus does not reflect a free-wheeling, open borders policy in which anyone can enter a country at will. It conceives of immigration process as a responsibility of prosperous nations as a form of humanitarian aid, conducted in an orderly manner subject to legal requirements, with limits on the number of immigrants, and with the immigrants obeying the laws of the host nation.

This is a very different picture of how immigration should work than is presently being advocated by some.
[url="http://www.jimmyakin.org/2006/03/immigration_cat.html"]continued...[/url]

[Jaime]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1455240' date='Feb 4 2008, 01:50 AM']Oh please. This has nothing to do with nationalism over religion. I wouldn't mind the Hispanics at all if I honestly felt they could bring a Catholic identity to this country, however, with all the drug trafficking, and gang violence given to us from south of the border there's no way I'm willing tolerate open borders. We need to know who wants to come through, what they intend to do once here, and monitor them while they're here.

Look, you need to go and actually do some research on Hispanic gangs in America--especially MS-13. You have to have a heart of stone not to think we shouldn't be doing everything we can to stop them(that would be why Ted Kennedy doesn't care).

[b]On a further note, as long as the Hispanics live on welfare, and refuse to learn English they will forever be doomed to be the permanent lower class who will be used by Democrats to garnish votes. [/b] Ballots will be printed in both English and Spanish, but I guarantee you Spanish will never be spoken on the Senate floor.[/quote]


Well you've established that you're a bigot. Now you're an ignorant bigot (redundant I know)

Hispanics are the second lowest ethnic group receiving welfare. Who's the highest? White folk. And a lot of those white folk speak English.

Get the navy to get you some education

[HollyDolly]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1454918' date='Feb 3 2008, 12:58 PM']I'm glad you brought that up, because it seems that there are a lot of Hispanics who do leave the Catholic Church for the evangelical churches, so I do think that American evangelicism does provide a temptation for them to leave.

That being said, I don't know how much better for their Catholic faith it would be for them to stay in their own countries, since the evangelical churches are gaining ground in Latin America as well.

Of course, that is for Hispanic immigrants. I live on the NW side of Chicago, which is a virtual "Little Warsaw" because of the substantial Polish immigrant population. It seems that evangelicals have not made as great an inroad among Polish immigrants as among the Hispanic ones, partially because of the role of the Catholic Church in Poland as an alternative to Communism and its conservative nature and, of course, the late Pope John Paul II. And don't think that illegal immigration is just among Hispanics, since there are Polish immigrants who are technically illegal because they may overstay their visas.

And I just want to point out that the faith issue you bring up applies not only to those here illegally, but also to those here legally.[/quote]
I agrre with you there.Also,I think the Polish and other groups like the German,etc. are better grounded in their faith and better taught their faith than in Latin America. My dad had a Catholic father and Lutheran mother who later converted to our side.Both were German.But as far as I know,none on either side has or want's anything to do with
evangelicals religion wise unless it's to convert them.My dad has relatives who are nuns and priests,so defintely no evangelicals hiding in our woodpile in the US or back in Bavaria.
If the evangelical churches are gaining ground in latin America it's because the Church isn't doing enough to instruct the people in the faith.

[daytondog]

[quote name='HollyDolly' post='1455933' date='Feb 5 2008, 06:11 PM']Also,I think the Polish and other groups like the German,etc. are better grounded in their faith and better taught their faith than in Latin America.[/quote]

I about fell over laughing after reading your post. Other than Poland, the Church is in shambles in secular Europe. The pews in Europe on Sundays are nearly empty while in Latin America they are full; Latin Americans in general are far more devout than their secular counterparts in Europe. To say groups like Germans, etc are better grounded in their faith, is not grounded in truth nor supported by facts.

One bright note in Europe though, it appears that Catholicism has once again regained its title as the most celebrated Christian faith in England, as on any given Sunday there are more Catholics attending church than there are Anglicans. Welcome home to Rome Tony Blair!

Edited February 5, 2008 by daytondog

[Dismas]

[quote name='daytondog' post='1455981' date='Feb 5 2008, 06:47 PM']I about fell over laughing after reading your post. Other than Poland, the Church is in shambles in secular Europe. The pews in Europe on Sundays are nearly empty while in Latin America they are full; Latin Americans in general are far more devout than their secular counterparts in Europe. To say groups like Germans, etc are better grounded in their faith, is not grounded in truth nor supported by facts.

One bright note in Europe though, it appears that Catholicism has once again regained its title as the most celebrated Christian faith in England, as on any given Sunday there are more Catholics attending church than there are Anglicans. Welcome home to Rome Tony Blair![/quote]
The German people, as well as most of Europe was quite devout and educated in their faith a few generations ago. Sadly, the Free Nations chose to expel Hitler with Stalin, or Satan with Beelzebub.

[Deb]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1455436' date='Feb 4 2008, 03:03 PM']I wonder how many of you have ever stepped foot in Mexico, and if you have, did you ever get farther than 10 feet from the resort in Cancun/Puerto Vallarta where everyone speaks English?

Go to the shrine and watch the elderly women walk on their knees across the cobbles. How many of you have had a Hispanic in your home to dinner? The M-13's are from El Salvador, not Mexico, and they prey primarily on the Hispanic community, especially taking advantage of illegals who are afraid to go to the police.

What would Jesus have said about how we treat and talk about these people? Quote me a bible passage or CCC passage where it says it is okay to hate and fear people based on their nationality, language or culture. You guys jump up to defend the unborn, and rightly so, but these are human beings too. Calling them illegal as a way of separating them out from our society so it is okay to be prejudiced against them, should sicken us all.[/quote]


Good for you!! I agree. Maybe if this country hadn't spent so many decades screwing around in Mexico to use their slave labor, they wouldn't be coming up here just to make a living. However, they are illegal and illegal is illegal regardless of what country you are from. That said, I don't think the dems want them so much for votes as the Republicans really want them to pick their crops, clean their houses, mow their lawns and watch their children. At low cost to themselves.

[mariahLVzJP2]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1455436' date='Feb 4 2008, 04:03 PM']I wonder how many of you have ever stepped foot in Mexico, and if you have, did you ever get farther than 10 feet from the resort in Cancun/Puerto Vallarta where everyone speaks English?

Go to the shrine and watch the elderly women walk on their knees across the cobbles. How many of you have had a Hispanic in your home to dinner? The M-13's are from El Salvador, not Mexico, and they prey primarily on the Hispanic community, especially taking advantage of illegals who are afraid to go to the police.

What would Jesus have said about how we treat and talk about these people? Quote me a bible passage or CCC passage where it says it is okay to hate and fear people based on their nationality, language or culture. You guys jump up to defend the unborn, and rightly so, but these are human beings too. Calling them illegal as a way of separating them out from our society so it is okay to be prejudiced against them, should sicken us all.[/quote]
Awesome post Catherine

[KnightofChrist]

For a response to the last two posts, I refer the reader to [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=76804&view=findpost&p=1455450"]post 21[/url].

Edited February 9, 2008 by KnightofChrist