Mormonism And The Church Fathers

[mortify]

Hi guys,

A Mormon sent me some quotes from the writings of the Church Fathers to support the doctrines of the LDS (polytheism, men literally turning into god, etc) what do you guys make of these?

[quote]Justin Martyr (150 AD)

Justin Martyr wrote the following:

"I shall give you another testimony, my friends," said I, "from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, …" (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch LXI, in Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, volume I, p.227) )

Justin Martyr also wrote:

"Then I replied, "Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavor to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things, — numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will. For I affirm that He has never at any time done anything which He who made the world — above whom there is no other God — has not wished Him both to do and to engage Himself with." (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch LVI, in Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, volume I, p.223)

---------

Irenaeus (c. 175 - c. 195)

Irenaeus was the Bishop of Lyons, and is almost one of the Apostolic Fathers, as he claimed contact with the apostolic generation and traditions through Polycarp.

Irenaeus wrote, "For we cast blame on Him, because we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods . . .He (God) declares: "I have said, Ye are gods, and ye are all sons of the Highest." (Irenaeus, "Against Heresies", Book IV, XXXVIII, 3 & 4 (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Roberts & Donaldson, Editors, Volume 1, p. 522)


(See below for the complete context of this quotation)

He also wrote, "... but following the only true and steadfast Teacher, the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through his transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself" ("Against Heresies", Book V, Preface, in Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume I, p 526)


Clement of Alexandria (c. 155 - c. 220 AD):

"CHAP. II.--THE SON THE RULER AND SAVIOUR OF ALL.

To know God is, then, the first step of faith; then, through confidence in the teaching of the Saviour, to consider the doing of wrong in any way as not suitable to the knowledge of God.
So the best thing on earth is the most pious man; and the best thing in heaven, the nearer in place and purer, is an angel, the partaker of the eternal and blessed life. But the nature of the Son, which is nearest to Him who is alone the Almighty One, is the most perfect, and most holy, and most potent, and most princely, and most kingly, and most beneficent. This is the highest excellence, which orders all things in accordance with the Father's will, and holds the helm of the universe in the best way, with unwearied and tireless power, working all things in which it operates, keeping in view its hidden designs. For from His own point of view the Son of God is never displaced; not being divided, not severed, not passing from place to place; being always everywhere, and being contained nowhere; complete mind, the complete paternal light; all eyes, seeing all things, hearing all things, knowing all things, by His power scrutinizing the powers. To Him is placed in subjection all the host of angels and gods; He, the paternal Word, exhibiting a the holy administration for Him who put [all] in subjection to Him." (Clement of Alexandria, "The Stromata, or Miscellanies", book VII, chapter II, in Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, volume II, p.524)

He taught that men become gods.

"But that man with whom the Word dwells does not alter himself, does not get himself up: he has the form which is of the Word; he is made like to God; he is beautiful; he does not ornament himself; his is beauty, the true beauty, for it is God; and that man becomes God, since God so wills. Heraclitus, then, rightly said, "Men are gods, and gods are men. For the Word Himself is the manifest mystery: God in man, and man God." (Clement of Alexandria, "The Instructor", Book II, Chap. 1, in Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, volume II, p.271)

In teaching of the degrees of glory in heaven, he also teaches that men become gods. In the chapter titled "Degrees of Glory in Heaven", Clement writes: "Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed. To the point Solomon says, "For there shall be given to him the choice grace of faith, and a more pleasant lot in the temple of the Lord." For the comparative shows that there are lower parts in the temple of God, which is the whole Church. And the superlative remains to be conceived, where the Lord is. These chosen abodes, which are three, are indicated by the numbers in the Gospel--the thirty, the sixty, the hundred. And the perfect inheritance belongs to those who attain to "a perfect man," according to the image of the Lord. And the likeness is not, as some imagine, that of the human form*; for this consideration is impious. Nor is the likeness to the first cause that which consists in virtue. For this utterance is also impious, being that of those who have imagined that virtue in man and in the sovereign God is the same. "Thou hast supposed iniquity,' He says, "[in imagining] that I will be like to thee." But "it is enough for the disciple to become as the Master," saith the Master. To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord Himself taught." ("The Stromata, or Miscellanies", book VI, chap. XIV, in Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, volume II, pp 505-506).

Elsewhere, in his "Exhortation to the Heathen", Clement writes: "It is time, then, for us to say that the pious Christian alone is rich and wise, and of noble birth, and thus call and believe him to be God's image, and also His likeness,* having become righteous and holy and wise by Jesus Christ, and so far already like God. Accordingly this grace is indicated by the prophet, when he says, "I said that ye are gods, and all sons of the Highest." For us, yea us, He has adopted, and wishes to be called the Father of us alone, not of the unbelieving. Such is then our position who are the attendants of Christ." ("Exhortation to the Heathen", chap XII, in Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, volume II, p. 206).

*In footnote to the above, the distinction is made between Clements use of "image" and "likeness" of God: "Clement here draws a distinction, frequently made by early Christian writers, between the image and likeness of God. Man never loses the image of God [the physical form] but the likeness consists in moral resemblance, he may lose it, and he recovers it only when he becomes reighteous, holy, and wise."[/quote]

[Deb]

Sure it wasn't LSD instead of LDS?

If he is going to use writings of Irenaeus, send this one back to him.

Iranaeus:
Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus#_note-10"][13][/url]

[/sup]

[CatherineM]

Didn't Justin Martyr take a detour into Monatanism for awhile?

[Brother Adam]

He is taking the Father's out of context, and the version he is using is not reliable.

One of the reasons for the incarnation that the Catholic Church recognizes is that we may become like God, which the Father's recognize. They do not profess and never did that man would become a god.

CCC 460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, [b]might become a son of God[/b]."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

[thessalonian]

Funny how they like to quote the fathers where it supports them. He's opened a severe can of worms. No evidence of this total apostacy they talk about is one item.
We do not become Gods. We become gods, i.e. in communion with the Triune God. A part of his mystical body indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

[praying4carmel]

Anyone really want Romney for President?

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='mortify' post='1453868' date='Jan 31 2008, 09:41 PM']Hi guys,

A Mormon sent me some quotes from the writings of the Church Fathers to support the doctrines of the LDS (polytheism, men literally turning into god, etc) what do you guys make of these?[/quote]


As C.S. Lewis says, to "beget" something is to produce something of the same nature as oneself. Humans beget humans. Mice beget mice. For God the father to beget is to produce something of the same nature as himself: divine, infinite, eternal, equal in all respects.

[Laudate_Dominum]

The language of “becoming gods” is sometimes used in elucidating the mystery of [i]theosis[/i] (plenty of Fathers, Scheeben, Marmion, the Catechism, et al.) but this does not in any way imply Mormon theology. The doctrine of [i]theosis[/i] is essential to authentic Christianity and presupposes orthodox belief about the Trinity, the Incarnation, the economy of salvation, et cetera, and to transplant these Fathers’ words into a Mormon theological context is pretty shoddy indeed.

[Apotheoun]

Catholics must not shy away from the doctrine of [i]Theosis[/i] simply because Mormons misuse patristical sources.

Those interested in reading more about [i]Theosis[/i] from an Eastern Catholic perspective can do so by clicking the link below, or by doing a search of the Phatmass phorum using the word "[i]Theosis[/i]":

[url="http://www.geocities.com/apotheoun/theosis"]The Doctrine of Theosis[/url]

[Justin86]

[quote name='praying4carmel' post='1454153' date='Feb 2 2008, 05:36 AM']Anyone really want Romney for President? [/quote]
Oh come off it. This has nothing to with politics and I'm sick and tired of all the religious bigotry surrounding Romney (even though I can't stand his politics). Its no different then anything Catholics faced before JFK. I mean, get a clue.

[Justin86]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1454154' date='Feb 2 2008, 05:36 AM']As C.S. Lewis says, to "beget" something is to produce something of the same nature as oneself. Humans beget humans. Mice beget mice. For God the father to beget is to produce something of the same nature as himself: divine, infinite, eternal, equal in all respects.[/quote]
Hmmmm, so how then is it possible for us to partake in Christ's divine nature?

[Dismas]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1454857' date='Feb 3 2008, 08:17 AM']Hmmmm, so how then is it possible for us to partake in Christ's divine nature?[/quote]
Do we not assimilate Him within us, literally, when we gnaw on His flesh and drink of His blood?

[Apotheoun]

Actually, it would be better to say that those who consume Christ in the Eucharist are assimilated to Him.

[mortify]

Hey guys,

I sent him a reply limiting myself to Justin Martyr. Here are some relevant portions from his reply to my email, all chapters are from Justin Martyr's discussion with Trypho. What do you guys think?

[quote]In chapter 57 Justin says that Jesus is a God who is the minister to God the Maker of all things: "this God who appeared to Abraham, and is minister to God the Maker of all things, being born of the Virgin, became man, of like passions with all, as you said previously." Thus, Jesus is God who has a God, since he is in subjection to the Father and is a minister to Him.

In chapter 56 Justin makes this even clearer, distinguishing Jesus as [color="#FF0000"]"another God"[/color]. After quoting from Genesis 18:1-2 and Genesis 19:27-28, Justin writes (and Trypho responds): "And when I had made an end of quoting these words, I asked them if they had understood them. And they said they had understood them, but that the passages adduced brought forward no proof that there is any other God or Lord, or that the Holy Spirit says so, besides the Maker of all things. Then I replied, "I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures,[of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things--above whom there is no other God--wishes to announce to them."[/quote]

[quote]Jesus is God under God the Father, "above whom there is no other God". There is only one God who is the Supreme God "above all", and it's not Jesus Christ because Jesus has a God above him.[/quote]

[quote][quote]"they call Him the Word, because He carries tidings from the Father to men: but maintain that this power is indivisible and inseparable from the Father, just as they say that the light of the sun on earth is indivisible and inseparable from the sun in the heavens;" (Chapter 128)

and...

"I asserted that this power was begotten from the Father, by His power and will, but not by abscission, as if the essence of the Father were divided; as all other things partitioned and divided are not the same after as before they were divided: and, for the sake of example, I took the case of fires kindled from a fire, which we see to be distinct from it, and yet that from which many can be kindled is by no means made less, but remains the same." (Ch 128)[/quote]

These references simply prove that Jesus is dependant upon the Father for his power and glory, he is inseparable from the Father just as we, when we give the words of the Father or do the works of the Father, are inseparable from the Father. We cannot do this without the Father, nor can we even exist on our own. We are inseparable, and the power of God is indivisible from Him. But this by no means makes us one being or essence with the Father. Nor does it mean that Jesus is one being or essence with the Father. And as I said above, when Justin says "not by abscission" you will notice that his concern is that someone might think that the essence of the Father is somehow diminished or split up when the Father begets or gives forth his power. The Father is not divided, he remains the same. This does not mean that Jesus is one being or one essence with the Father, however.[/quote]



[quote][quote]"Then I replied, "Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavor to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things, — numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will. For I affirm that He has never at any time done anything which He who made the world — above whom there is no other God — has not wished Him both to do and to engage Himself with."

This is really the easiest to address since by "numerically" Justin means the Three Persons, not three gods. It's also important to note the fact that there is no distinction in Will, showing the unified economy in God: where the Father is, there the other Two Persons of the Trinity are, and what He does, they are with Him.[/quote]

That the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are unified in their will is without question. This is, in fact, the very reason that they can be said to be "one God", they have a unity of will and purpose, they are "one". But you must admit that Justin goes beyond simply saying that Jesus is distinct from the Father in person, for Jesus is said to be in subjection to the Father as his minister or Angel, and he suggests that Jesus is a God who is below God the Father, "above whom there is no other God".[/quote]

[Justin86]

[quote name='Dismas' post='1454864' date='Feb 3 2008, 11:58 PM']Do we not assimilate Him within us, literally, when we gnaw on His flesh and drink of His blood?[/quote]
Ok, but how much of this do you truly partake? I mean, I can't be Infinite, or Eternal, or anything like that. I'm a mortal human, and as such certain divine qualities are unattainable for me.