VanHooty Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 You people would have kids whither on the vine, languish in foster home after foster home, get turned loose when they turn 18 with a little money, and a few items of clothing, rather than be raised by people who want them, that is sick. Hyper, I don't think anyone is suggesting that. No more then we are suggesting putting them in a home that is abusive. At least, I'm not suggesting it. However can we allow, say, someone with a severe mental disorder to adopt a child? I would not think so, because of the interest of the child. Now, I am not saying homosexuality is similar in nature to something like schizophrenia. Comparable, certainly (I mean comparable in the sense as apples and oranges are comparable). I just wanted to use the example as an illustration for part of the reason why some of us aren't exactly comfortable with allowing homosexuals to adopt children. We [orthodox] Catholics believe homosexuality is a disorder. It is contrary to the natural state of things and appears to be a threat to the institution of the family. As such, we can't exactly condone SSC's adopting children. It would seem counter-intuitive, considering our logic. Not condoning or approving of homosexual adoption is one thing, while the outright banning of it through legislation is another. I myself cannot forsee the complete banning of such adoptions, because, first and foremost, we (here in the U.S.) live under a secular government that does not and should not support or repress any (most?) forms of religious belief. Homosexuals certainly believe they have a right to a family, and it would behoove us to demonstrate to them and the rest of society there would be a danger to the child and the rest of society if homosexuals were allowed to adopt. This, I guess, is why I am torn. I don't see homosexualty to be enough of a threat. Sure, it erodes the definition of a family to include both a husband and a wife. Sure, homosexualty is intrinsically disordered and against the natural state of things. But... so? I mean... well... so what? I'm still not seeing how this directly impedes my ability or society's ability to worship God. Just to close, I guess, I'll throw out a question. Should a homosexual couple who are loving, caring, kind, and etc. be allowed to have a child instead of a heterosexual couple with the same "level" of "loving and caring?" For me, the answer seems to be no. And clearly no. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanHooty Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 The Catholic Church certainly would not use language as brutal as that you chose to use to make your point. Well... the CCC seems to suggest much of his sediments. ("stolen" from the Vatican's website): 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. Granted, this should be read in context. Particularly the following two paragraphs, paragraphs 2359 and 2359, should be read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 (edited) The fact remains as far as the last part of your first statement goes that heterosexual couples usually go looking for babies and most gay and lesbian couples that I know want children, black, white, sick, healthy, 12, it doesn't much matter. Some uf us [orthodox] Catholics think that having a homosexual orientation should not be allowed to retard a person's entire life, ie a person's sexual orientation informs who they want to sleep with, not any other substantive thing relating to what it is to be human, what it takes to be a good teacher, a good provider, a good friend, a good life partner, a good truck driver, a good lawyer, a good plumber, a good judge, or a good parent. Edited August 5, 2003 by hyperdulia again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanHooty Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Hence the reason I am torn. I am almost of the same agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Well... the CCC seems to suggest much of his sediments. ("stolen" from the Vatican's website): 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. Granted, this should be read in context. Particularly the following two paragraphs, paragraphs 2359 and 2359, should be read. Those sentences don't deal with orientation for the most part they are concerned with acts, I still can't draw a line between that paragraph or the other two and the trash contained in Jake's post, but if their is a line to be drawn I quite frankly will become an Episcopalian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 I had hoped this topic would have expanded beyond homosexuality. The point I wanted to get at was why actively homosexual couples would not be good. A same sex couple, by it's nature, is not the societal building block God created. When we discuss that, we also see that it is just as disordered for a hetero couple (like celebrities) to adopt later in live just to pass on their name or leave a mark on the world. That attitude is just as intrinsiclly disordered homosexuality. Hyper made a very good point that it is heterosexual immorallity that is the root of this discussion. How can we come down on homosexual immorallity without drawing paralells with hetero immorality. Maybe Hyper get's a little too defensive when homosexuality is discussed, but that is besides the point. How disordered is it for men to raise their sons to 'check out women' as sex objects instead of people? How disordered is it for women to dress their 10 year olds is short shorts and midriffs with complete makeup? If we get to the honest negative about actove homosexaulity as being detrimental to the family, how detrimental are hetero sexual mores that are just as destructive and are more widespread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanHooty Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 (edited) You raise several good points jasJis. There are practices that are far more destructive and subersive then homosexuals adopting children that heterosexuals and the rest of society seems to embrace open-heartedly. The biggest thing that comes to my mind is in vitro fertilization. Society seems to think that everyone has some sort of inherent right to have his or her own children. Bleh, I say to society. Bleh. That type of mentality not only discourages people from adopting, but also (because of the nature of the technology) promotes the dehumanization of human embryos. If you want children, adopt a kid you bloody and greedy twits. Sorry... I get rather passionate on this issue. As an adopted child myself, I don't want children to be stuck in foster homes and shifted around from place to place for their entire childhood. I was watching Nova on PBS once upon a bleary night, and the topic was on this very same issue. One of the couples interviewed mentioned that they wanted to undergo IVF because, among other things, with adoption "it wouldn't be our child." I wanted to scream at the two that you don't have to have the same bloody deoxyribonucleic acid in order for it to be "your" child. Edited August 5, 2003 by VanHooty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 first lets start off with a prayer, dear Lord, please grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change and the courage to change the things i can and the wisdom to know the difference amen. O Clement O loving O Sweet Virgin mary, Pray for us O HolyMOther of God that we may be worthy of hte promises of Christ.... i'm not dissing anyone of youstrictly speaking on the subject and i mean everything as sincerely as possible!! the focus of this thread is not about you and me, its ultimately about the children and the family that all must be held to the highest regards that God recalls it such and period. the child deserves the best that God can offer in a family, they are the ones who are suffering and are gifts from God. they must have what they need, which is a mother and a father, a FaMily! there are things that only a mother can give to her child, and there are only things that a father can give to his child and we have to realize the importance of the family structure...logically the family and marriage are under attack today and in our society as a whole and as such. you have to see that this is throwing out the structureof the Holy Family that God shows us through St. Joseph, The BLessed Mother and the Child jesus, this is how it is because God structured it this way, the whole foundation shown thru us through God Himself... thus, allowing gay couples to adopt is a destruction that blurrs the image of family that God bestows, to one quite opposite....one has to see what attack the family and marriage is under today and this topic that can become a reality in the any near future proves it. this is hard for some because some are homosexual but it still does not make it okay to allow such a thing. it is backwards, just like homosexual marrige is backwards, God constructed that the couple in marriage be ONLY between a male and female. this too is under attack with things getting closer to what the congress have been fighting for since canda approved same-sex marrige! this too destorts the beautiful sacramental structure of marriage.....now the family that requires a man and woman of the house with their children is now being attacked to be man-man and woman-woman...this is not the way it is....just like homosexuality is backwards, having attraction to the same sex is also distorted from what God has bestowed when He created Adam and Eve, thats why the Pope speaks of such and also our Church and God's Word.... the devil has been very clever in thinking that we can and need to do the quite opposite of what God has intended for man, and we must not fall for that....we must be aware of how this affects us because it not only affects those who are homosexual but everyone, we are all affected by this.... i really do think that the children and family are the ones getting attacked today thru many different ways... i know hyper that you probably might or might not read this but i wanted to say that i am proud of you and love ya soo mcuh! i know that you are chaste,and that this whole thread has affected you in alot of ways, you are living God's word in your life and thats what God calls us to do, we love you we know where your coming from....but know that we also must uphold and fight on our Church's behalf on issues like this....we know that you are caring for a little girl that you love to death, and we are proud of you for doing what you can to make sure this little girl is taken care of, you are following God and The BLessed Mother and I know that you hold a special place in their hearts because of your love, devotion and faith that you carry, and i also know that since another niece/ornephew is on the way that God also knows and understands what you must do to protect his little angels here on earth.....God knows your heart Hyper and He loves you, and we love you as a brother in Christ....always, you are an inspiration and truly a instrument of God... but the world that is in darkness, does not see God in the picture as you and I do.....it doesn't make whats right, wrong....nor what is wrong, right...we must never lose sight of God's plan and what he intends for us...and yes, i know very well that there is are many things attacking the marriage, pre-martial sex, divorce, separation, all sinful acts however this topic pertains to homosexuals and adoption. yes, unfortuantley we can not do so well, the the structure of the family falling apart in today's society, and yes, the children are the one who suffer for our actions, but we must never lost sight of God's plan for the family and marriage and what He has constructed in His image as good.....we cannot just throw it out the window... and we cannot shrink away from what God has also willed of the family and marriage and children, we must always carry God's teachings and love to this God-less world that has only become their own "god"...... we are all sinners, all of us, and i'm not bashing anyone! i'm speaking up for the family and marriage....and as always we must always hate the sin not the sinner, to never turn anyone away but rather be an example of Jesus to them..... the Blessed Mother has spoken on the distruction that the world and today's society has done to what God has created and we must be aware of what is happening in our society...this is a good thread, we must converse this, many things such as this wil be brought up to all of us, and we must be prepared spiritually to know God's Will.... i hope you all know that i mean all my words sincerely, God bLess! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 (edited) "Hyper -- My dear friend, you know that I understand this, but this reactionary attitude has to stop. You just can't keep reacting this way every time the topic of homosexuality is broached. You see the subject line: "Homosexuals Adopting Children." Maybe it would be prudent for you not to read threads that are so clearly about an issue you're so passionate about. Anger is sinful, so topics such as this are occasions to sin for you. I know you'll be back, and I hope that you'll consider not having this type of reactionary attitude in the future. May God bless you and Mary keep you while you're away, and I hope you'll stay in touch." It is my most fervent prayer, that people will always call me a reactionary, a loud-mouth, overly-sensitive or whatever else they feel in a given moment, and God willing I'll never back down on anything I care about. I would gladly die or kill for what I believe in. I believe the issue at hand is not as Satan keeps trying to convince us, homosexuality, it is the general breakdown of the western sociological pattern, viewing it from a clinically atheistic standpoint this does not concern me. Viewing it as a homosexual it makes me angry that in many a mind homosexuality has turned into the pan-ultimate sin, the wrongest of the wrong. Viewing it as a Catholic, it gives me pause that while people are on the one hand aborting, contracepting, adopying their children out of their lives, for reasons that as best I can tell are always selfish; and people on the other hand, who through no fault of their own are attracted to people who are of the same gender as themselves, want to pick up little victims, or to the people that brought them into the world little peices of disposable property, of the broken society they live in and care for them; that so much energy would be expended on lambasting the latter group, while the former group performs every sexual "perversion" the latter group does and murders its children on top of it. These kinds of decisions need to be made about individual people in individual situations; all of the moralizing and pontificating in the world is not going to make "yes" or "no" the right answer to this question, I would actually pose another question: what is wrong with people in general that leaves the door open in this way, that parents who are living, young, healthy, heterosexual, and married aren't raising their own children? This starts with Nathan's quote, but it isn't a response to him, his post is what got me thinking. Edited August 5, 2003 by hyperdulia again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vianney Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Either way you want to slice it, active homosexuality is wrong. The Pope came out and said that adopting children into a homoesexual home is WRONG. If the Pope came out and said that something else was WRONG which he has done many times that may affect my life and rub me the wrong way I still follow what he would say, I would research it more, and I would DEFINATELY not leave the church. Since we are on the subject of dying, I would die before leaving the catholic church. And I dont think that the right wings have tried to do anything with homosexuals except not give them special rights to marry etc etc. Just my two cents.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 "i know hyper that you probably might or might not read this but i wanted to say that i am proud of you and love ya soo mcuh! i know that you are chaste,and that this whole thread has affected you in alot of ways, you are living God's word in your life and thats what God calls us to do, we love you we know where your coming from....but know that we also must uphold and fight on our Church's behalf on issues like this....we know that you are caring for a little girl that you love to death, and we are proud of you for doing what you can to make sure this little girl is taken care of, you are following God and The BLessed Mother and I know that you hold a special place in their hearts because of your love, devotion and faith that you carry, and i also know that since another niece/ornephew is on the way that God also knows and understands what you must do to protect his little angels here on earth.....God knows your heart Hyper and He loves you, and we love you as a brother in Christ....always, you are an inspiration and truly a instrument of God..." Firstly Flowery, thank you for your kind words, I don't deserve them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Secondly, how am I an exception to these rules, why am I an instrument of God taking care of little angels (to paraphrase Flowery's beautiful phrasing) and others aren't. Was I not an instrument three weeks ago when I loved Ashley as much as I do right now, but was having sex with her father? Does my love for her and ability to teach and guide her become less if tomorrow Jon and I become active homosexuals? Does Jon, who stopped his child from being aborted and turned his life upside down to provide for her become a less worthy father? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 (edited) "Either way you want to slice it, active homosexuality is wrong. The Pope came out and said that adopting children into a homoesexual home is WRONG. If the Pope came out and said that something else was WRONG which he has done many times that may affect my life and rub me the wrong way I still follow what he would say, I would research it more, and I would DEFINATELY not leave the church. Since we are on the subject of dying, I would die before leaving the catholic church. And I dont think that the right wings have tried to do anything with homosexuals except not give them special rights to marry etc etc. Just my two cents.. " Well thank you for your two and I'll return the favor. It is easy for heterosexuals to say what the would and wouldn't do, but you don't know. If the world was flipped upside down and your sexual orientation was the one that was called disordered, you had to lisdten to people spew ridicuolous amounts of abuse at you, for simply trying to live and die like any other human being, what would you do? If your Church not only said that you can't be married, that you can't make love to the person you care most about, but that you have no right to even absolutely basic and intensely human things like seeing a child in need and taking care of it, what would you do? When people use the teachings of an institution you love to call your family names and to beat you over the head Vianney? Being Catholic is something I sacrifice for everyday; I make sacrfices whose point is completely lost on me, but I do so, because Jesus is God and the Catholic Church is His Bride and my mother, God only knows how many souls have been released from purgatory over the last couple of weeks all because of the tears I have shed and the pain I have felt; I sacrifice and will continue to do so, but the moment that this Church does something as asanine[sp?] as actually command me to not raise a child (Praise the great God, She hasn't done that yet and I don't think She will), to not help one that needs me I'm outta here, because She's a different institution than I thought She was. I'm not a great big concept person, I will never sacrifice a child to ideas as vague as societal good, and traditional family structure. Edited August 5, 2003 by hyperdulia again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Secondly, how am I an exception to these rules, why am I an instrument of God taking care of little angels (to paraphrase Flowery's beautiful phrasing) and others aren't. Was I not an instrument three weeks ago when I loved Ashley as much as I do right now, but was having sex with her father? hyper, just like i said before, it is a sin to be sexually active and for this topic, homosexually active...its wrong period . its evil (as any sin is evil) and it destorts the lovely gift of sex that God had created for man and women, and you know that....and that is a very grave sin, the sacrament of marriage and children come from the fountain that God has bestowed on those between a man and a woman, no matter what we ourselves are feeling.....no matter if i'm saving the world with one hand, but sinning in the other, i'm still sinning! you are an instrument because you are chaste, you have obeyed your God and His commandments as we all should, but as i stated before, homosexuals adopting should not be allowed...its not called traditional, its not called "stuck in the old ways" its the Right Way there is no other way around it, what is wrong is wrong, no matter who what when where how and why....i'm talking about leltting it become a norm, a "new" family style, thats silly, it can not be so! God shows us, we follow, despite what others and society claims as normal and righteously ours... tradtionally meaning going back all the way to the "Holy Family" ? you got it hyper! God 's teachings are so, and for all, every single one of us to obey and follow.. Does Jon, who stopped his child from being aborted and turned his life upside down to provide for her become a less worthy father? yup if he has decided to disobey God and go against his words and were sexually active and not in the graces of a marriage blest by God's grace, its as simple as that, and that goes for anyone..... you have to understand hyper, we must hold true to what God has taught us, the very foundation of both family and marriage are under atttack, and we as a Church, speak up for behalf of what God has taught us to be..... the devil has plagerized so many things.....abortion, sex, anything and eveyrthing that is good. including, God's plan for both man and woman to glorify and manifest the wonderful, beautiful gifts that only belong in marriage....we can not fully understand but we can fully be devoted to our Lord,.... God bless ! +JMJ :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 I'd like to say that I haven't made statements to the effect that homosexual acts aren't sinful, they are; this is something I accept, because the Catholic Church says so. I would, however, like to say, if two people, or one person, or a half dozen Romanys in Hungary, or a homosexual (active or not), see a child who needs them and they offer themselves up for the sweet crucifixion that is parenting, they are doing God's will, they are doing something holy and they have my undying respect and gratitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vianney Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 I agree with you hyper, BUT doing that is different then two homosexual couples trying to raise a child together and somehow make a "family" They are just two differnt situations.Just my two cents ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts