Does Anyone Have A Relative Or Close Friend Who Is Gay Or Lesbian?

[Veritas]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1445519' date='Jan 14 2008, 06:05 AM']I'm glad someone posted this distinction, as I have a friend who is gay, but who is also chaste. He doesn't deny that he has those desires, but he doesn't act on them either.[/quote]

+

Yes. The word "gay" especially is rooted in homosexual lifestyle activism propaganda. For someone who does not live the "gay or lesbian" lifestyle, the title "with same-sex attractions" is more appropriate. This, especially, because it does not base their identity on their sexuality, because in truth, everyone's genuine identity is in Christ! So, I think when people hear the titles "gay and lesbian" they quite understandably and automatically assume (unless explicitly stated otherwise) that the person is living the life.

A few awesome websites, helpful to all in learning compassionate practicals:

For those struggling with same-sex attractions:
[url="http://www.couragerc.net/"]http://www.couragerc.net/[/url]

For friends of those with same-sex attractions:
[url="http://www.couragerc.net/Encourage.html"]http://www.couragerc.net/Encourage.html[/url]

National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuals:
[url="http://www.narth.com/"]http://www.narth.com/[/url]

Edited January 14, 2008 by Veritas

[Pontifite 7 of 10]

I have close friends who I met this year tat claim to be "Bisexual".
Last count I had like six friends who are claiming to be this.
I hope its a phase for each of them, but those are bad odds for all of them.
I express that I don't approve and never really support them when they date each other.
But I still love those guys and it makes me so angry they don't care if they go to hell or not, as long as they have love (whitch to them gender does not dictate).
I wish I could support them cause I'd like to have a friend whose a girl who can judge girls with me but, I'm backing the church on this.
And that explains my title.

[MissScripture]

One of my very dear friends from highschool is gay. I was one of the last people he told (in our group of friends), because he was worried about how I would take it, being he knew I was Catholic and had something of a grasp on how the Church feels about it. It didn't really come as a surprise, though. We had a few conversations about it, and I was honest with him that I did not agree with what he was doing, but I love him and nothing can ever change that. We haven't talked about it since then, because there's not much to say. He knows how I feel and neither of us want to destroy our friendship over arguing about it.

[Veritas]

[quote name='Pontifite 7 of 10' post='1445765' date='Jan 14 2008, 07:30 PM']I have close friends who I met this year tat claim to be "Bisexual".
Last count I had like six friends who are claiming to be this.
I hope its a phase for each of them, but those are bad odds for all of them.
I express that I don't approve and never really support them when they date each other.
But I still love those guys and it makes me so angry they don't care if they go to hell or not, as long as they have love (whitch to them gender does not dictate).
I wish I could support them cause I'd like to have a friend whose a girl who can judge girls with me but, I'm backing the church on this.
And that explains my title.[/quote]

+

Yes, it's clearly glamorized in the culture today. It's "cool" to be bi. It's absolutely ridiculous. It's so blatantly rooted in insecurity, and the overt sexualization of young girl "role-models" is clearly an antagonist. Need I mention: Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Paris Hilton, Lindsey Lohan, etc. Just say no to MTV.

[Socrates]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1445444' date='Jan 13 2008, 10:47 PM']I fail to see where in that quote she indicated that her friend was leading a life of sin. Being a homosexual does not equate to having homosexual relationships with others.[/quote]
"Outing" or identifying oneself as "gay" or "lesbian" usually implies that one is engaging in homosexual acts, or at least is living/supporting the "lifestyle." (See [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=76233&view=findpost&p=1445820"]post #49 by Veritas[/url] in this thread.)
And if one is living a chaste life, there is no need to identify oneself by one's disordered inclinations.

[quote name='Kitty' post='1445458' date='Jan 13 2008, 11:25 PM']You are placing homosexuality up there with murder, robbery and lying. Homosexuality should NOT be compared with those acts, and NO, homosexuality in itself is NOT a sin. Haven't you read up on the Catholic Church's teaching of this? It says that homosexual ACTS are disordered, not homosexuality.

From the Catechisim of the Catholic Church:

[b][size=1]2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex... Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained...tradition has always declared that 'homosexual [u]acts[/u] are intrinsically [u]disordered.[/u]' They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.[/b][/size]

From "Homosexuality" on Catholic.com:

[b][size=1]"Every human being is called to receive a gift of divine sonship, to become a child of God by grace. However, to receive this gift, we must reject sin, including homosexual behavior—that is, acts intended to arouse or stimulate a sexual response regarding a person of the same sex. The Catholic Church teaches that such acts are always violations of divine and natural law.

Homosexual desires, however, are not in themselves sinful. People are subject to a wide variety of sinful desires over which they have little direct control, but these do not become sinful until a person acts upon them, either by acting out the desire or by encouraging the desire and deliberately engaging in fantasies about acting it out. People tempted by homosexual desires, like people tempted by improper heterosexual desires, are not sinning until they act upon those desires in some manner."[/b][/size]
Homosexuality and homosexual desires are [b]not[/b] a sin. Homosexual acts ARE.[/quote]
The homosexual inclination is in itself objectively disordered.

From the Catechism, next paragraph after the one you quoted:[quote]2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. [b]This inclination, which is objectively disordered[/b], constitutes for most of them a trial.[/quote]
Homosexual inclinations are disordered, and to act on them is sinful.

From [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfhomop.htm"]The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith's 1986 letter to the Bishops on The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons[/url] (written by Cardinal Ratzinger, our current Holy Father Benedict XVI):[quote]In the discussion which followed the publication of the Declaration, however, an overly benign interpretation was given to the homosexual condition itself, some going so far as to call it neutral, or even good.
[b]Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.[/b][/quote]
While one only sins if he willingly acts on the inclination, the inclination itself is disordered, and must not be seen as something neutral or good. It can't be said that "God makes people homosexual."


[quote]As for God not making people homosexual, that is strongly debatable. What about children, who at a very, very young age, start showing signs of homosexuality or interest in becoming another gender? I remember seeing a story on TV in the news about this five year old boy, born to a very normal family, and the parents said he started becoming very interested in girl's toys and he liked to wear girl's clothes. He became more and more feminine and eventually he started seeing himself as a girl. The parents said they don't know how it happened.

YES, some people are born gay. Others become gay as a result of no father/mother, a bad childhood, or simply a disorder. To blatently state that "God does not make people gay" is ridiculous.


Why should I admonish my friend if I don't know that they have done anything wrong? I don't talk about their personal life with them...it's an intrusion of privacy. None of my gay friends have ever spoken about having sex with other people...the most they have mentioned to me is how much they find another person attractive, which is not a sin.
Homosexuality should not be constantly equated with sodomy, either. Just as it should not be equated with pedophilia, as is often the case, sadly. There are chaste homosexual people out there, you know.[/quote]
There is no solid evidence that anyone was "born gay." Despite the hype, no "gay gene" has ever been found. And even if there was, it would not make homosexuality right or good, but it would remain a disorder. (Veritas has posted a couple relevant articles- [url="http://www.narth.com/docs/glatze.pdf"]http://www.narth.com/docs/glatze.pdf[/url] [url="http://www.narth.com/docs/isminor.html"]http://www.narth.com/docs/isminor.html[/url] - in Open Mic.)

Again if one is living a chaste life, there is no reason to identify oneself with a disordered inclination or a sinful "lifestyle."

As for "placing homosexuality up there with murder, robbery and lying," The Church does traditionally list homosexual vice ("The Sin of the Sodomites") right up there with wilful murder and oppressing the poor as one of the five "Sins that Cry Out to Heaven for Vengeance.": 1) Wilful murder - the blood of Abel, [Gen. 4:10], (2) The sin of the Sodomites , [Gen. 18:20; 19:13], (3) The cry of the people oppressed in Egypt, [Ex. 3:7-10], (4) The cry of the foreigner, the widow and the orphan, [Ex. 20:20-22] and (5) Injustice to the wage earner. [Deut. 24:14-5; Jas. 5:4].

Edited January 15, 2008 by Socrates

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1445847' date='Jan 14 2008, 11:12 PM']"Outing" or identifying oneself as "gay" or "lesbian" usually implies that one is engaging in homosexual acts, or at least is living/supporting the "lifestyle." (See [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=76233&view=findpost&p=1445820"]post #49 by Veritas[/url] in this thread.)
And if one is living a chaste life, there is no need to identify oneself by one's disordered inclinations.
The homosexual inclination is in itself objectively disordered.[/quote]
I'm white. If I had not told you just now, you wouldn't have known. However, not telling you didn't make me any less white. But because I'm white doesn't mean that I do sinful things that other white people, such as go to white supremacy rallies. Identifying with a certain stance or disorder doesn't make you more disordered, nor does concealing the disorder lessen it. You said yourself, acting upon them is wherein the sinfulness lies. I still don't see where she said her friend is having or has had homosexual relations. And I'm not entirely certain what you wanted me to take from Veritas's post...

[Socrates]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1445879' date='Jan 14 2008, 11:59 PM']I'm white. If I had not told you just now, you wouldn't have known. However, not telling you didn't make me any less white. But because I'm white doesn't mean that I do sinful things that other white people, such as go to white supremacy rallies. Identifying with a certain stance or disorder doesn't make you more disordered, nor does concealing the disorder lessen it. You said yourself, acting upon them is wherein the sinfulness lies. I still don't see where she said her friend is having or has had homosexual relations. And I'm not entirely certain what you wanted me to take from Veritas's post...[/quote]
Your analogy is so far off I don't even know where to start.

Having homosexual inclinations is an objective disorder towards an intrinsically sinful act.

Being white (or black, or Asian, or any other race) is not.

Your point about "White Supremacy" rallies is a total non-sequitor. I'm white, yet neither me nor any other white person I know personally has any inclination to attend them.
There's nothing intrinsic to being white which inclines one toward a sin.

Dude, you can't compare a disorder to a race. (Such a statement sounds itself racist)
Perhaps a more accurate analogy would be someone who struggles with interior temptations to racism, yet does not act on them, and always treats people of other races with respect. Such a person would not sin, yet it would be ridiculous for him to run around identifying himself as a "racist" or "white supremacist."

In the same vein, a Christian should not identify oneself as "gay" or "lesbian."

(Correction: I made a link to the wrong post by Veritas in my earlier post, that should have been #46, not #49. Sorry for the confusion.)

Edited January 15, 2008 by Socrates

[Vincent Vega]

Perhaps my analogy was off, it was something I thought up on the spur of the moment. You are more learned about doctrinal matters than I; of that I am certain. However, I don't see in the CCC where it says that you shouldn't identify as a homosexual, if it is so.
From Paragraph #2358:
[quote]This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.[/quote]
I would think that [i]acceptance[/i] with "respect, compassion, and sensitivity" would involve admitting that one were homosexual. Perhaps I am completely wrong, but that's my take on the matter.
Pax Christi,
Mitch

[bonoducchi]

My uncle is gay.
I have numerous friends who are gay.
I have had several coworkers who are gay (although none that I know about at present).

[carrdero]

[quote]Veritas writes: Yes, it's clearly glamorized in the culture today. It's "cool" to be bi. It's absolutely ridiculous. It's so blatantly rooted in insecurity, and the overt sexualization of young girl "role-models" is clearly an antagonist.
Need I mention: Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Paris Hilton, Lindsey Lohan, etc. Just say no to MTV.[/quote]
Are these the best (or the only) examples of bi-sexuality that you can provide?

Edited January 15, 2008 by carrdero

[Veritas]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1445903' date='Jan 14 2008, 11:26 PM']Perhaps my analogy was off, it was something I thought up on the spur of the moment. You are more learned about doctrinal matters than I; of that I am certain. However, I don't see in the CCC where it says that you shouldn't identify as a homosexual, if it is so.
From Paragraph #2358:

I would think that [i]acceptance[/i] with "respect, compassion, and sensitivity" would involve admitting that one were homosexual. Perhaps I am completely wrong, but that's my take on the matter.
Pax Christi,
Mitch[/quote]

+

I think the problem comes when a person says "I am" instead of "I struggle with". It goes back to true identity.

God Bless,
V

[Tinkerlina]

Yes, I have a cousin (second cousin actually) a couple of years younger than me who is a lesbian. It's an "open secret", she doesn't really bring it up but she does bring the girl we all know to be her girlfriend to family parties and all. I have never talked to her about it because frankly I haven't a clue what I'd say, and she's never brought up the subject. I definitely pray for her and naturally I still love her.

[Kitty]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1445847' date='Jan 14 2008, 10:12 PM']"Outing" or identifying oneself as "gay" or "lesbian" usually implies that one is engaging in homosexual acts, or at least is living/supporting the "lifestyle."[/quote]

If someone tells me they are gay, I don't immediately assume that they are having sex with other people. Don't assume that because someone says they are gay or lesbian means they are living the lifestyle.

[quote]From the Catechism, next paragraph after the one you quoted:
Homosexual inclinations are disordered, and to act on them is sinful.
While one only sins if he willingly acts on the inclination, the inclination itself is disordered, and must not be seen as something neutral or good. It can't be said that "God makes people homosexual."
There is no solid evidence that anyone was "born gay." Despite the hype, no "gay gene" has ever been found. And even if there was, it would not make homosexuality right or good, but it would remain a disorder.[/quote]

If homosexuality is bad, then that person who is homosexual is also "bad" and they can't do anything about it. Are you saying that they are sinning constantly by being gay?

It cannot be said that "God doesn't make anyone gay" either. Whether or not God made them gay should not have anything to do with it. So what if God made them gay? He made them gay, then.


[quote]As for "placing homosexuality up there with murder, robbery and lying," The Church does traditionally list homosexual vice ("The Sin of the Sodomites") right up there with wilful murder and oppressing the poor as one of the five "Sins that Cry Out to Heaven for Vengeance.": 1) Wilful murder - the blood of Abel, [Gen. 4:10], (2) The sin of the Sodomites , [Gen. 18:20; 19:13], (3) The cry of the people oppressed in Egypt, [Ex. 3:7-10], (4) The cry of the foreigner, the widow and the orphan, [Ex. 20:20-22] and (5) Injustice to the wage earner. [Deut. 24:14-5; Jas. 5:4].[/quote]

The sin of the Sodomites is referring to homosexual acts, not homosexuality in itself.

[Ash Wednesday]

I have a couple of friends who are gay. I wouldn't say "close" friends because I don't know them really well -- they were classmates. Being in the art biz, I've crossed paths with a very diverse group of people.

I don't need to say more than what's been said, except this: admonishing someone out of personal anxiety and fear -- simply because you, yourself, are afraid of going to hell -- kind of makes it hard to attract someone to your religion.

Edited January 15, 2008 by Ash Wednesday

[infinitelord1]

Here is an interesting video on the topic of homosexuality. It is about 15 minutes long. If you have the time please watch the video and tell us what you think. This is why gay people should not be mistreated.

[url="http://www.homosexuality101.com/"]http://www.homosexuality101.com/[/url]

Edited January 15, 2008 by infinitelord1