Does Anyone Have A Relative Or Close Friend Who Is Gay Or Lesbian?

[Veritas]

+

silly double post!

Edited January 12, 2008 by Veritas

[Veritas]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1444922' date='Jan 12 2008, 10:53 AM']See, I don't think it is our duty to barge into someone else's orientation and be like "you know, what you're doing is a sin, and if you don't repent, you're going to hell". How would you feel if someone of a different Religion than yours came up to you and started admonishing your actions based on their Religion. I know that if I was the person being admonished, I could care less about what they said because I'm not a part of the Religion anyway.

If gay people do not know that they are sinning when they engage in homosexual actions, then they are not guilty of anything. If I knew a gay person who was Catholic, and knew he was sinning, then I might say something to him.[/quote]

I appreciate what you are saying, but regarding: "barge into someone else's orientation and be like 'you know, what you're doing is a sin, and if you don't repent, you're going to hell'" -that's NOT admonishing (caps for emphasis), that is condemning. That is definitely NOT what is being recommended. Please see the definition of "admonish", provided above. We use opportunities that may arise.

Regarding, "If gay people do not know that they are sinning... they are not guilty of anything." Yes, they may have a very lessened degree of culpability, but regardless of moral and spiritual guilt they are still suffering the effects. For example, if a person doesn't know that lying, cheating, stealing, adultery, drug use, is a sin, they still suffer the ill consequences of those behaviours. Sin by it's very nature degrades us. So, out of love, we gently offer alternatives, explanation, and prayers.

[EAnn246]

One of my best friends is a lesbian. She was raised Catholic and still identifies herself as Catholic even though she knows the Church's position on homosexuality. Since she has come out, she has become more religious and happier with herself. (She suffered from severe depression). I might not agree with homosexuality, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.

[Veritas]

[quote name='EAnn246' post='1444960' date='Jan 12 2008, 01:40 PM']One of my best friends is a lesbian. She was raised Catholic and still identifies herself as Catholic even though she knows the Church's position on homosexuality. Since she has come out, she has become more religious and happier with herself. (She suffered from severe depression). I might not agree with homosexuality, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.[/quote]

"I'm not about to change who she is"

Christ will, but he's expecting us to help Him! We are "co-workers" with Christ!

[Kitty]

You can't "change" gay people...and I don't think it's God's will that we change them. Are you talking about changing their orientation?? Because that's ridiculous...

[Deb]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1444978' date='Jan 12 2008, 02:17 PM']"I'm not about to change who she is"

Christ will, but he's expecting us to help Him! We are "co-workers" with Christ![/quote]

Yeah, you can't change their orientation. You could explain the chasity thing though. It is the same for heterosexuals who are not married.

[Veritas]

[quote name='Deb' post='1445132' date='Jan 12 2008, 10:56 PM']Yeah, you can't change their orientation. You could explain the chasity thing though. It is the same for heterosexuals who are not married.[/quote]

+

I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. The orientation is debatable (let's not put limits on the healing power of God), but definitely to pray for a change from living the "gay" lifestyle to one of chastity. That's the Church's teaching and it's one of those universal things.

God Bless you and your friend!
V

Edited January 13, 2008 by Veritas

[Socrates]

[quote name='Spamity Calamity' post='1444638' date='Jan 11 2008, 04:25 PM']I do not feel a responsibility myself. He knows how the Catholic church feels about homosexuals and knows that it goes against Objectivist philosophy as well. He understands why it is considered a sin. He doesnt care. He himself is an atheist that holds great respect for the Catholic Church for advancing science, producing some of the greatest intellectual minds ever, keeping knowlege alive during the dark ages, and for all the good the church does today as well. He thinks that the Catholic Church and Objectivism just got it wrong on this subject and feels that in time it will be corrected.

I hope he doesnt kick my butt for revealing this but he does not engage in sex with other men. He is attracted to men, and he watches alot of gay porn (like ALOT...alot...aloooooot). He has had oral sex with other men but never anal sex ever. But his last sexual encounter was in high school and hes like 25 now and does not date or "go clubbing" hes trying to get a Masters in government and reads.

So what am I supposed to do? I'd have to get him to believe in God before I could convince him a sin was worth avoiding, right? He knows how I feel and the Catholic Church and Objectivism and he doesnt care. As far as another Catholic telling me the condition of my salvation I would be a little insulted. What gives them the right to determine my salvation? That is not their job. I would believe it more if a priest told me or it was written into Canon law or something. The best I can do is be an example to him of "What nice people those Catholics are!"[/quote]
I think you have the right idea.
Presumably he knows how you, as a Catholic, regard homosexual vice.
Since he is an atheist, it is unlikely he will try to overcome his homosexuality until he first believes in Christ. After all, as Nietzche said, without God all things are permitted.
So I'd say it would be most important first to try to lead him to Christ. If he becomes a sincere Christian/Catholic, he may then see the need to overcome his sin.

And if he has a problem with porn, this is a serious matter morally, whether or not he engages in sodomy with other men. Pornography, whether "gay," "straight," or what have you, is a serious moral problem which is hard to overcome.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1444875' date='Jan 12 2008, 02:49 AM']I have two gay friends, one is male, the other is female. I've never spoken to them about their orientation and I don't intend to unless they want to discuss it with me. It's none of my business. My gay friends are just as much fun to hang around with as my straight friends. They are funny, compassionate, sympathetic, and I like to talk with them. They're just people made by God and He decided to make them have a different oritentation, and different struggles, because he loves them. We need to love them too and help them when they ask or need it. Doesn't mean we need to approve of their lifestyle, but we still need to love them.[/quote]
First of all, the Church teaches that homosexuality is an objectively disordered condition. It is a result ultimately of original sin. God does not make anyone homosexual, anymore than he makes anyone a thief, liar, or murderer.
Some people may struggle with an inclination towards that sin, but that does not make the condition good in itself.

[quote name='Kitty' post='1444922' date='Jan 12 2008, 11:53 AM']See, I don't think it is our duty to barge into someone else's orientation and be like "you know, what you're doing is a sin, and if you don't repent, you're going to hell". How would you feel if someone of a different Religion than yours came up to you and started admonishing your actions based on their Religion. I know that if I was the person being admonished, I could care less about what they said because I'm not a part of the Religion anyway.

If gay people do not know that they are sinning when they engage in homosexual actions, then they are not guilty of anything. If I knew a gay person who was Catholic, and knew he was sinning, then I might say something to him.[/quote]
With due respect, that is nonsense.
Sinful activity (whether homosexuality or anything else) is intrinsically wrong and evil, and hurts the soul of the sinner as well as others. We can never presume that a person is in a state of innocence, just because he has not been told an activity is wrong. Ignorance is not bliss.
As Christians, we are [i]commanded[/i] to correct the sinner.

Two of the seven Spiritual Works of Mercy which the Church commands us are to [b]Instruct the Ignorant[/b], and to[b] Admonish the Sinner[/b].
These are not suggestions, but commands of Christian life.

In fact, if we know something is wrong, and willfully fail to correct it, we make ourselves at least in part guilty of the sins of others.

Note that these are works of [b]Mercy[/b]; they are acts of mercy and charity to others.
Look at this way; if someone you loved was dancing aroud blindfolded at the edge of a cliff, unaware of the cliff, would it not be for his own good to try to stop him?

And whether or not particular homosexuals are "nice," "fun," etc. is completely irrelevant to morality of homosexual acts.

[quote name='EAnn246' post='1444960' date='Jan 12 2008, 02:40 PM']One of my best friends is a lesbian. She was raised Catholic and still identifies herself as Catholic even though she knows the Church's position on homosexuality. Since she has come out, she has become more religious and happier with herself. (She suffered from severe depression). I might not agree with homosexuality, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.[/quote]
I might not agree with drug abuse, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.

I might not agree with theft, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.

I might not agree with pedophilia, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.

If someone is living a life of sin, she is [b]not[/b] living a truly religious life. It is an act of mercy to try to lead your friend to repentence. You must love the sinner, but this also means hating the sin. Giving approval of sinful activity in reality benefits no one.

And homosexuality is serious business; the Church lists sodomy among the five Sins that Cry Out to Heaven for Vengance.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1445425' date='Jan 13 2008, 10:01 PM']I might not agree with drug abuse, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.

I might not agree with theft, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.

I might not agree with pedophilia, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.

If someone is living a life of sin, she is [b]not[/b] living a truly religious life. It is an act of mercy to try to lead your friend to repentence. You must love the sinner, but this also means hating the sin. Giving approval of sinful activity in reality benefits no one.

And homosexuality is serious business; the Church lists sodomy among the five Sins that Cry Out to Heaven for Vengance.[/quote]
I fail to see where in that quote she indicated that her friend was leading a life of sin. Being a homosexual does not equate to having homosexual relationships with others.

[Kitty]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1445425' date='Jan 13 2008, 09:01 PM']First of all, the Church teaches that homosexuality is an objectively disordered condition. It is a result ultimately of original sin. God does not make anyone homosexual, anymore than he makes anyone a thief, liar, or murderer.[/quote]

You are placing homosexuality up there with murder, robbery and lying. Homosexuality should NOT be compared with those acts, and NO, homosexuality in itself is NOT a sin. Haven't you read up on the Catholic Church's teaching of this? It says that homosexual ACTS are disordered, not homosexuality.

From the Catechisim of the Catholic Church:

[b][size=1]2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex... Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained...tradition has always declared that 'homosexual [u]acts[/u] are intrinsically [u]disordered.[/u]' They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.[/b][/size]

From "Homosexuality" on Catholic.com:

[b][size=1]"Every human being is called to receive a gift of divine sonship, to become a child of God by grace. However, to receive this gift, we must reject sin, including homosexual behavior—that is, acts intended to arouse or stimulate a sexual response regarding a person of the same sex. The Catholic Church teaches that such acts are always violations of divine and natural law.

Homosexual desires, however, are not in themselves sinful. People are subject to a wide variety of sinful desires over which they have little direct control, but these do not become sinful until a person acts upon them, either by acting out the desire or by encouraging the desire and deliberately engaging in fantasies about acting it out. People tempted by homosexual desires, like people tempted by improper heterosexual desires, are not sinning until they act upon those desires in some manner."[/b][/size]


Homosexuality and homosexual desires are [b]not[/b] a sin. Homosexual acts ARE.

As for God not making people homosexual, that is strongly debatable. What about children, who at a very, very young age, start showing signs of homosexuality or interest in becoming another gender? I remember seeing a story on TV in the news about this five year old boy, born to a very normal family, and the parents said he started becoming very interested in girl's toys and he liked to wear girl's clothes. He became more and more feminine and eventually he started seeing himself as a girl. The parents said they don't know how it happened.

YES, some people are born gay. Others become gay as a result of no father/mother, a bad childhood, or simply a disorder. To blatently state that "God does not make people gay" is ridiculous.



[quote]Sinful activity (whether homosexuality or anything else) is intrinsically wrong and evil, and hurts the soul of the sinner as well as others. We can never presume that a person is in a state of innocence, just because he has not been told an activity is wrong. Ignorance is not bliss.
As Christians, we are [i]commanded[/i] to correct the sinner.
In fact, if we know something is wrong, and willfully fail to correct it, we make ourselves at least in part guilty of the sins of others.[/quote]

Why should I admonish my friend if I don't know that they have done anything wrong? I don't talk about their personal life with them...it's an intrusion of privacy. None of my gay friends have ever spoken about having sex with other people...the most they have mentioned to me is how much they find another person attractive, which is not a sin.


[quote]And homosexuality is serious business; the Church lists sodomy among the five Sins that Cry Out to Heaven for Vengance.[/quote]

Homosexuality should not be constantly equated with sodomy, either. Just as it should not be equated with pedophilia, as is often the case, sadly. There are chaste homosexual people out there, you know.

Edited January 14, 2008 by Kitty

[Veritas]

+

We have to be careful to make distinctions between desires and willed thoughts also. It is in fact sinful to engage (that is to indulge a passing thought) in sexual thoughts about any one to whom we are not married (as Jesus so clearly states in the Gospel). Now, attraction in and of it self may be beyond one's ability to control and therefore is not considered sinful. However, one experiences even in chaste heterosexual relationships, that attractions can be fed or quelched. It is our responsibility as Christians to quelch sinful and disordered attractions.

Edited January 14, 2008 by Veritas

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1445458' date='Jan 14 2008, 03:25 AM']It says that homosexual ACTS are disordered, not homosexuality.[/quote]

I'm glad someone posted this distinction, as I have a friend who is gay, but who is also chaste. He doesn't deny that he has those desires, but he doesn't act on them either.

[carrdero]

[b]Does Anyone Have A Relative Or Close Friend Who Is Gay Or Lesbian?[/b]
My wife is bi-sexual.

[Spamity Calamity]

I don't think there is anything wrong with telling your gay friend WHY homosexual acts are a sin. Gently of course. One thing that I have learned is that in time they usually ask you about it if they know you are a practicing Catholic. This is a golden time to outline everything discussed in this thread.

I think most posters are right in this thread in a way. You need to be compassionate but firm.