The Issue At Hand

[Didymus]

the apparitions and messages themselves are not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the folks that I see in my parish and surrounding parishes, who have this superstitious take on the apparitions, as if traditional Catholic practices aren't as good as the many devotions they perform for their own respective apparition.

I have no problem with Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe, or even Medjugorje. I have a problem when some folks seemingly turn it into their own religion.

[Deb]

[quote name='Blessed Imelda Pray for Us' post='1443679' date='Jan 9 2008, 11:09 AM']Was Pope Urban speaking infallibly? No. Therefore it seems to be his personal opinion of which we can regard or disregard as our well formed conscience instructs us.

Let us also contrast the Pope's statement with a statement by one of the greatest mystics of the Church, St. John of the Cross. " The desire for private revelations deprives faith of its purity, develops a dangerous curiosity that becomes a source of illusions, fills the mind with vain fancies, and often proves the want of humility, and of submission to Our Lord, Who, through His public revelation, has given all that is needed for salvation. We must suspect those apparitions that lack dignity or proper reserve, and above all, those that are ridiculous. This last characteristic is a mark of human or diabolical machination. [u][b]Stay away from visions, apparitions, and miracles as much as you can. Be careful of visions, even when they are authentic. [/b][/u]"

My gut says not to trust Medj. From what I've read the suspected apparition has instructed the seers to disobey bishops. Mary would never, ever, ever instruct the faithful to disobey the bishops. When St. Faustina went to her superior for permission on something Jesus had instructed her to do, the superior said no and St. Faustina remained obedient to the superior. When she asked Jesus about this He praised her obedience to the superior.

It seems foolish to place our trust in any and all apparition when more than a few may be caused by something diabolical. The devil will tell 99 truths just to slip in 1 lie.[/quote]

Lots of people talk about Mary instructing the seers to disobey the Bishop. She hasn't. The Bishop of that area did believe the children and did back them. That was until the communist police brought him in and told him he was to disavow the messages or he would be put in prison. They also brought in Fr. Jozo. The Bishop called Fr. and told him he was not willing to go to prison for something that may or may not be happening. Fr. Jozo originally disbelieved the children until he received a message to protect the children. Fr. Jozo was arrested and sentenced to three years in prison. He was tortured and beaten but, was released after 18 months due to public outcry. The Bishop meanwhile decided to state that he did not believe the children.
Rome has explicitely told the Bishop that he was to make sure and preface any of his statements that they were his personal opinion, not the opinion of the Church.

One should never make a definite decision on personal revelations because you just can't know. Six people do not give up their lives from childhood on for nothing however . They certainly aren't getting rich, they are tired, they are pressured but, they still receive pilgrims in their home and cook and clean for them. It is amazing. If you would like to read the weekly messages to the world for the past 23 years, they can be found here: [url="http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~marco/medjugorje/"]http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~marco/medjugorje/[/url] Towards the bottom of the page is the homily that Fr. Jozo gave on the eve of the 15th anniversary of the first apparition. It is beautiful. If you can find anything of Satan in any of this, please let me know.

If I had not been "called" to go there, I would still be living in despair, suicidal, alone. A Seminary student paid my way! I did not even really want to go. Instead, I am in RCIA, I have found a wealth of Catholic friends, God is with me all the time and the church is my salvation. I do believe in the apparitions and the messages and what I felt and saw while I was there. The fruits for me are certainly not of the devil nor were they for any one of the many people I know who have been there. 73 days til my confirmation and 75 until I am on my way back to Medjugorje. Yes, I am counting the days to both of these incredible events brought about by the grace of God.

[HeavenlyCalling]

When it comes to devotions for me personally, less is more. I have a few devotions I would rather die than not have ( Adoration, Rosary, devotion to the Archangels and a big devotion to Our Lady). I do however, have a deep interest in the Fatima apparitions. Instead of mearly invocing Mary under that Title, I try to do what she asked. Go to confession, pray for conversion, pray the rosary and go to Mass. I think sometimes people get too caught up in the accuall apparitions and center their cult (in the old school sense) around that instead of focusing on the message, which is a good, solid one.

[kafka]

[quote name='Catholictothecore' post='1443241' date='Jan 8 2008, 02:08 AM']And another point is that private revelation is not neccesary for salvation. I honestly believe that whether or not the Church popular comes to see something as true, when the Magesterium wisely says nothing, is a sign of God's hand. (there was a time when the Church said nothing about Fatima, too). I don't think that the Church He promised would not be beaten by hell would, in general, be allowed to go so far astray.[/quote]

good insight. take note of these verses:

{20:2} Therefore, she ran and went to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and she said to them, “They have taken the Lord away from the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.”
{20:3} Therefore, Peter departed with the other disciple, and they went to the tomb.
{20:4} Now they both ran together, but the other disciple ran more quickly, ahead of Peter, and so he arrived at the tomb first.
{20:5} And when he bowed down, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not yet enter.
{20:6} Then Simon Peter arrived, following him, and he entered the tomb, and he saw the linen cloths lying there,
{20:7} and the separate cloth which had been over his head, not placed with the linen cloths, but in a separate place, wrapped up by itself.
{20:8} Then the other disciple, who had arrived first at the tomb, also entered. And he saw and believed.

~notice both Peter and John are running together but John outruns Peter to the tomb. This is symbolic. Some members of the Church arrive at a deeper understanding of the Faith first and the leaders follow later. John saw the sign of the Resurrection first, but he did not enter the tomb, he waited for Peter. This is also a symbolic event in that sometimes the some members of the Church have to wait for the leaders of the Church for the same depth of understanding of the Faith. John saw and understood first, Peter is first in authority, therefore Peter enters first.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Catholictothecore' post='1443241' date='Jan 8 2008, 01:08 AM']This is something that really bugs me sometimes. Please read the following statement.
"In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true."[/quote]

Several things about this quote.
What is the source? Was this quote from a bull, encyclical, apostolic letter, etc.? Can you give this quote in the original Latin so that we can make sure the translation is accurate?

[kafka]

There is nothing wrong with avoiding private revelation. If one is not sure about a particular one they are best to avoid. Especially since there are so many false private revelations in the world today.

I've noticed some people have stated they rely on their "gut feeling" when judging private revelations. I disagree with this. For a private revelation to be true it must meet some sort of criteria. Here are some taught to me by a theologian:

True private revelations contain no theological errors, nor any doctrines contrary to Church teaching.
True private revelations are fallible. Everything God says is infallible but the person recieving the revelation misunderstand it, or the person may make an error in recording it.
True private revelations tend not to exalt the one receiving them.
True private revelations have purpose, and they often show knowledge of the future.

Also true private revelations tend to be simple in message, contain the subtle wisdom in Heaven, and reflect Tradition, Scripture, and Magisterium.


Here are some criteria for false private revelations:

Exaltation of the Seer
Frequent Reference to Evil
False claims about the future
Long, rambling, uninformative . . .
Blaming specific groups for the problems in the Church and the world
False doctrines and distortions of doctrine
False miraculous healings

[Didymus]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1443724' date='Jan 9 2008, 02:46 PM']Several things about this quote.
What is the source? Was this quote from a bull, encyclical, apostolic letter, etc.? Can you give this quote in the original Latin so that we can make sure the translation is accurate?[/quote]

what the hell dude, the quote wasn't just pulled from any ancient archives. It's a popular enough quote that we'd know about it if it had any translation errors.

this is rediculous...

[kafka]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1443726' date='Jan 9 2008, 02:51 PM']what the hell dude, the quote wasn't just pulled from any ancient archives. It's a popular enough quote that we'd know about it if it had any translation errors.

this is rediculous...[/quote]

agreed. Though forgive him he is a bit younger.

[Maggyie]

I read once from someone (Fulton Sheen?) about how in the 20th century there was a lot of running around from place to place, with people looking for supernatural appearences of Mary, here, there and everywhere, spending a lot of money on plane fare for "pilgramages" etc, and all the while there was the Lord of Lords and King of Kings waiting neglected in the tabernacle at the parish church around the corner.

Which is not of course what "Mary" (if it genuinely is her) would want at all.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1443730' date='Jan 9 2008, 12:57 PM']I read once from someone (Fulton Sheen?) about how in the 20th century there was a lot of running around from place to place, with people looking for supernatural appearences of Mary, here, there and everywhere, spending a lot of money on plane fare for "pilgramages" etc, and all the while there was the Lord of Lords and King of Kings waiting neglected in the tabernacle at the parish church around the corner.

Which is not of course what "Mary" (if it genuinely is her) would want at all.[/quote]something good to remember

[kafka]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1443730' date='Jan 9 2008, 02:57 PM']I read once from someone (Fulton Sheen?) about how in the 20th century there was a lot of running around from place to place, with people looking for supernatural appearences of Mary, here, there and everywhere, spending a lot of money on plane fare for "pilgramages" etc, and all the while there was the Lord of Lords and King of Kings waiting neglected in the tabernacle at the parish church around the corner.

Which is not of course what "Mary" (if it genuinely is her) would want at all.[/quote]

True, but the 20th century was horrific, spiritually bankrupt, and there was a lot of suffering. A lot of people live there Faith simply so who can blaim them for taking pilgrimages and looking for answers at some of these apparitions.

That said though, there are people who make there own little religion out of the apparitions, but that is an extreme.

[Ash Wednesday]

The Church doesn't really say anything or make any final conclusions about ANY apparitions until after they stop. It's just protocol and common sense.

I soooooooo agree with Didymus on people turning apparitions into their own religion. I have often wryly referred to it as "The Gospel According to Fatima."

I believe in all of the approved apparitions. The jury is still out on Medjugorje as far as I'm concerned, though. I would love for them to be true and I used to believe them but now I'm not so sure. I'm not really going to get into that since there's a thread about it on the debate board. I respect people's opinions either way. I haven't ruled out visiting though. I don't doubt that visiting pilgrims experience Jesus and Mary (I separate this from the apparitions themselves). Seek and ye shall find, after all. God doesn't disappoint people who seek him.

[Didymus]

same here. I've wanted to go with different groups a few times, i just didn't have the cash. My own spiritual director goes like every other year or so.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1443730' date='Jan 9 2008, 03:57 PM']I read once from someone (Fulton Sheen?) about how in the 20th century there was a lot of running around from place to place, with people looking for supernatural appearences of Mary, here, there and everywhere, spending a lot of money on plane fare for "pilgramages" etc, and all the while there was the Lord of Lords and King of Kings waiting neglected in the tabernacle at the parish church around the corner.

Which is not of course what "Mary" (if it genuinely is her) would want at all.[/quote]

I agree, perspective and prudence is needed here, and in all things considered. Though I do know of people whose lives as far as how they lived as a local Catholic were radically changed for the better after going on pilgrimmages abroad. I have no problem with the idea of pilgrimmages if it strengthens their faith lives at home and gives them a new perspective. I do have a problem with it when people let this stuff overtake the gospel, rather than supplement it.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1443726' date='Jan 9 2008, 03:51 PM']what the hell dude, the quote wasn't just pulled from any ancient archives.[/quote]

LOL!