Not Kneeling At Mass

[Katholish]

Given the symbolism surronding the Sanctuary (where the altar is) and the rest of the Church, I would recommend against going into the sanctuary at all during the Mass unless you are an altar boy. The Sanctuary is the "head" of the Church and is representative of Christ, the Head of the Mystical Body, and we the faithful make up the rest of the Body (or church in this case). The Sanctuary should be reserved for the representatives of Christ as the Mass (the priest acts in persona Christi when he says Mass which means in the person of Christ).

As for kneeling for the consecration, in the Latin Rite, I should think it a must. Given that it is the tradition of the Latin Rite to kneel, and this has been the universal pratice for well over a millenia, it seems disrespectful to purposely and without cause depart from that traditional sign of reverence replacing it with the most minimal of signs, ie standing. I have been to a church without kneelers at which the entire congregation stood (Let me tell you it was quite shocking to me). I would kneel anyway though, even if there is some risk of feeling proud, because it seems rather not to kneel is, in my opinion at least, scandalous (not in the technical sense) to a certain degree. It is a time when we are called to be witnesses to the True Presence and possibly receive ridicule for Christ's sake. (Yes, it is always a shame if persecution comes from our own fellow Catholics.)

Laudate_Dominum, I agree with you that we should bring back the altar rails.

[cimlog]

Thanks Kath and Welcome!

I will take what you said into consideration.

[BLAZEr]

Let us please remember two things:

The ordinary posture for the eucharistic prayer in the Universal Church is standing. It is permitted and "laudably retained" in this country to kneel from the Sanctus to the Great Amen and again from the Agnus Dei to the end of communion.

Some diocese have chosen to misinterpret the GIRM and require standing after the reception of communion and until the last person has received communion.

However

Let us not confuse reverence with an outward gesture. Reverence is not determined by your head's proximity to the ground. A person can be just as reverent, even more reverent, when standing than while on their knees. Reverence is a disposition of your heart, not of your lower appendages.

Let us also remember that Rome has approved our GIRM and that it allows for us to stand when there is a just reason not to kneel. I find it annoying that some people think their suggestions are more 'holy' than the opinion of Holy Mother Church.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Let us please remember two things:

The ordinary posture for the eucharistic prayer in the Universal Church is standing.  It is permitted and "laudably retained" in this country to kneel from the Sanctus to the Great Amen and again from the Agnus Dei to the end of communion.

Some diocese have chosen to misinterpret the GIRM and require standing after the reception of communion and until the last person has received communion.

However

Let us not confuse reverence with an outward gesture.  Reverence is not determined by your head's proximity to the ground.  A person can be just as reverent, even more reverent, when standing than while on their knees.  Reverence is  a disposition of your heart, not of your lower appendages.

Let us also remember that Rome has approved our GIRM and that it allows for us to stand when there is a just reason not to kneel.  I find it annoying that some people think their suggestions are more 'holy' than the opinion of Holy Mother Church.

Kneeling from the Sanctus to the Great Amen is not merely permitted but is specified in the GIRM, this is not just in the U.S. either. Kneeling from the Agnus Dei to the end of Communion differs depending on where you go.

And I don't think anyone here would deny thay reverence is primarily in the heart. But outward signs of reverence are an essential part of liturgical worship, it's part of the language of the Liturgy and should not be down-played.

Edited February 19, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[BLAZEr]

Will you agree that a person is not 'less reverent' if they are standing?

[BLAZEr]

I just wanted to post what the GIRM actually says:

43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53

Again I reiterate that the kneeling from the "Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic prayer" is an American allowance. It is not the law of the Universal Church.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Will you agree that a person is not 'less reverent' if they are standing?

Certainly. Only God knows the disposition of the heart.

But I also think that a Liturgy which is lacking in outward signs of reverence is impoverished. These outward signs are part of what indicates or expresses the transcendent and sacred dimensions of the Liturgy. This is part of the reason why I sympathize with people who are perturbed by the no kneeling thing.

The interiorizing mentality which diminishes the importance of the outward form of the Liturgy implies a kind of anthropological dualism and is unfaithful to the incarnational principle.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I just wanted to post what the GIRM actually says:

Again I reiterate that the kneeling from the "Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic prayer" is an American allowance.  It is not the law of the Universal Church.

It does not say that it's an allowance, and in fact every country I've ever been to kneels during that part of Mass. In fact I've read that this is the general practice in Europe. In Scottland they kneel through almost the entire Liturgy and still retain the use of the Communion rail.

I believe what you posted was the GIRM with the U.S. specific adaptations, that's why the United States is specifically mentioned.

The Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani for the universal Church reads:

"Where it is the custom that the people remain kneeling from the end of the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei, this is laudably retained".

This "laudably retained" thing indicates that it is most praiseworthy to kneel. So when a Bishop says "no kneeling", as is the case in L.A., it makes sense to ask why.

And places that don't kneel are often experiments in inculturation. The Church in India does some pretty strange things during this part of Mass for example.

Anyway, I think it's false to say that kneeling from the Sanctus to the Great Amen is an allowance, it's actually the authentic tradition of the Roman Rite Liturgy and has been the practice in the novus ordo since it was instituted. I would say it is more proper to say that those places that do not have this laudable custom are the ones with the allowance.

Edited February 19, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[BLAZEr]

Sorry you are wrong. In Latin America and all throughout Mexico people kneel only during the actual consecration. The rest of the Eucharistic prayer they remain standing. This was true for EVERY parish I visited in Mexico, Chile, Argentina, Colombia, Peru, Honduras, and Brazil

[BLAZEr]

Laudable retained does not mean you what you just said it means. Laudable retained is a response to a dubium. The Dubium asked for a clarification on the GIRM, specifically if it was retained or not whether one should kneel at that point. The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments responded that the American custom was "laudably retained" which means that it is retained with gusto and not begrudgingly.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Sorry you are wrong.  In Latin America and all throughout Mexico people kneel only during the actual consecration.  The rest of the Eucharistic prayer they remain standing.  This was true for EVERY parish I visited in Mexico, Chile, Argentina, Colombia, Peru, Honduras, and Brazil

Actually I'm not wrong. You suggested that standing during the consecration is the norm and the U.S. has a special privledge to kneel. This is utterly false. The general practice is to kneel from the Sanctus to the Agnus Dei, or at least during the consecration. You confirm my point because there is still kneeling during this time. And every Mass I've been to in Mexico (at least 30) included kneeling from the Sanctus to the Great Amen so from my experience you are wrong. Also almost every Mass I've been to in Europe including a number of Masses in Rome. And I read an article once which talked about the demographics of this practice and said it was the general practice.

It doesn't really matter though because I know what I've read on the matter and I know that the Church sees it as most proper to kneel during this time, as you know it's "most laudable". The Church even endorses kneeling to recieve Communion.

Anyway, it doesn't matter if only 50% of places kneel during this part of Mass, the point was that it's not some indult for the U.S. It's a part of Roman Catholicism that the Church in the U.S. has largely been faithful to, thanks be to God.

And have you ever read the arguments of those who want to get rid of kneeling altogether? It's a load of liberal carp. I see nothing wrong with supporting kneeling and opposing standing. I consider it laudable actually.

Edited February 20, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[Laudate_Dominum]

Laudable retained does not mean you what you just said it means. Laudable retained is a response to a dubium. The Dubium asked for a clarification on the GIRM, specifically if it was retained or not whether one should kneel at that point. The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments responded that the American custom was "laudably retained" which means that it is retained with gusto and not begrudgingly.

I don't think the use of "laudably retained" is just from a response to a dubium but is in the GIRM, not just the U.S. adaptations but the original Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani for the universal Church .

And your interpretation is interesting since the word "laudable" has but one meaning. Namely, "Deserving commendation; praiseworthy."

I don't know what kind of stuff you're reading where you would get that kind of interpretation, sounds like half the liberal fluff out there that tries to twist everything to fit it's agenda. Answer me this, why would someone oppose things like kneeling and other signs of reverence? I know what the liberals would say but I want to know what you think.

[cmotherofpirl]

i don't like them goin around the altar, it annoys me. i don't go so i can kneel.

i have talked to my priest before, he says the diocese of Pittsburgh made an exception that those on the altar dont havta kneel... is this true CMOM?

I have never seen a document from the diocese of Pittsburgh stating teenagers could stand around an altar.

I wrote to the regional director of life teen awhile back and asked a copy of any document stating teens could "gather" around the altar. She said they were working with the USCCB. It said that was nice, please cite me a document.

She again repeated they were working with the bishops. I said fine, show me ANY document saying teenagers could gather ariound the altar.

I am still waiting as she never wrote back.

When my youth group goes to Mass together we sit in the pews like everybody else, usually in the front.

[Laudate_Dominum]

The main thing regarding most of these kind of issues is that there are different "camps" within the Church. Within the laity, among Theologians and even in the Church's hierarchy itself. You have those who explicitly want to abolish kneeling and those who promote it. You have the famous Cardinal Ratzinger vs. Cardinal Kaspers debate on ecclesiology and all of that. You have those who promote women priests, those who oppose it, those who want to make the Mass into an ecumenical service, and those who want to restore it to it's authentic majesty. On these kind of issues I tend to go in the direction of people such as Cardinal Ratzinger who seem to be more faithful in their arguments to the authentic teachings of the Church. This is another example of that. It's not a question of obedience of disobedience, it's a question of which agenda do you support? Do you think kneeling is a medieval expression of fear and obesience that should be removed from the Church's festive communal gathering? Or do you think it is a beautiful, biblical expression of reverence that encapsulates the heart of our participation in the Sacrifice of the Mass? Is it a sublime expression of the Church's Theology of the Liturgy and a valuable part of the Latin Rites' traditions, or is merely an archaic medieval invention that is "irrelevant" to modern man?

[BLAZEr]

First of all, insinuations and insults are common from you laudate. If someone does not agree with you 100% you become beligerent. You really need to reevalute your ability to take part in a civil conversation.

Your response is not only rude, it borders on the uncharitable. I'm sure you'll fail to see this as well, but I'm poiniting it out because it needs to be pointed out. You did it in the thread on the Monks and the SSPX and I've noticed it in other places as well. This obviously just my opinion, and you can take it as you like. But I would dare say God wants you to hear this, either for correction for you, or evidence of my irrationality. You choose.

Now, in response to your statements. You are most likely using the sentence where "laudably retained" is found from the Adoremus website. If you are looking at the Actual Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, please post the link or type the whole paragraph. I have not been able to find the IGMR in English anywhere on the internet wihtout the US adaptations, including the one from Adoremus.

2nd, I am not arguing against kneeling, but I am ensuring that we do not overstep our bounds. Just so you know, standing is also a posture of reverence. Yes, I know it's a different type of reverence and one that, I agree, should not be the norm during the Eucharistic prayer, but standing is still a posture of reverence. That is why we stand during the Gospels and other times when we pray during the liturgy.

I do not want to hear it implied that those who do not stand, for whatever reason, are being irreverent. Quite frankly, your comments border on such things. You cannot judge a person's heart. I know that some who do not kneel do so for bad reasons. Some do it out of a liberal agenda

I am not a liberal, I have a degree in Theology, and I am in fact Orthodox. I find your insinuation insulting.

My major study of liturgy has been through the eyes of the Early Church Fathers, Romano Guardini, Dom Garanger and Cardinal Ratzinger. I am in full agreement with his points in "The Spirit of the Liturgy."

My interpreation of laudably retained, is specifically this: It is in fact a response to a dubium, its a response to many dubiums. That it was included in the IGRM is because there were, in fact, many dubiums sent to the CWDS during the early stages of the revision of the IGRM.

Don't come to me with your quick reading of the Documents. You need to understand how these documents were formed as well.