Not Kneeling At Mass

[Dave]

I've been attending a parish other than the one where I live largely because it has more Masses to choose from such as an evening Mass and a late morning Mass (the one where I live offers only one Sunday Mass, and it's quite early). Well, starting today, from now until December, Mass will be said in the parish social hall because the church is undergoing renovations (true renovations, mind you, not wreckovations ). Anyway, we were instructed to stand during the consecration because there were no kneelers. But doesn't the GIRM say we're to kneel EVEN IF there are no kneelers?

[Laudate_Dominum]

Here is what the current GIRM says:

"General Instruction of the Roman Missal," Missale Romanum, 3rd typical edition

43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.

I would not be able to stand going to a parish that stands for the consecration. I personally would switch parishes over something like this, whether it's legit or not.

Edited February 16, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[cmotherofpirl]

My bishop says kneel anyway.

[Laudate_Dominum]

My bishop says kneel anyway.

That's rad! I kneel anyway too. Standing during the consecration just feels creepy.

[willguy]

I stand if everyone else is standing to avoid the appearance of self-righteousness.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I stand if everyone else is standing to avoid the appearance of self-righteousness.

I tend to not care that much about what other people think. It's all about Jesus, and He knows my heart so if someone wants to judge me that's their problem.

[Katt1227]

I go to a church where we stand during the consecration mostly because we don't have kneelers and we have a concrete floor and the chairs are way too close together to be able to kneel without making a commotion.

When I'm at home, or another parish, I kneel or do whatever that parish does.

With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.

So, doing whatever the rest of the parish does, whether it be standing or kneeling, should be what we do because it promotes a sense of community among the congregation.

[M.SIGGA]

My priest said to either stand or kneel depending on what the priest/parish you are attending and how they do it at that particular church. Luckily we still kneel.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I go to a church where we stand during the consecration mostly because we don't have kneelers and we have a concrete floor and the chairs are way too close together to be able to kneel without making a commotion.

When I'm at home, or another parish, I kneel or do whatever that parish does.

So, doing whatever the rest of the parish does, whether it be standing or kneeling, should be what we do because it promotes a sense of community among the congregation.

The GIRM demands a profound sign of reverence during the consecration regardless of concrete floors or not. Kneeling during the consecration is specified quite strongly by the GIRM as the norm, however the conditions of the parish you mentioned seem to be a valid. I kneel as a personal preference, and this is in no way disobedient or against anything, I have a personal letter from Cardinal Arinze confirming this fact. Kneeling is, to quote Cardinal Ratzinger, "a fundamental right of the faithful". Personally I would avoid a parish that does not kneel at any cost. To build a church without kneelers or to remove the kneelers is not very Catholic to say the least since its part of our tradition and since kneeling is the norm. Why someone would build a catholic church without kneelers is beyond me and why priests or bishops would discourage reverence toward the Blessed Sacrament is beyond me.

And God comes before the community. I could care less about the community apart from Christ because without Him it would hardly be different from a legion of demons since without Him we would all be going to hell. Reverence is an essential part of the Liturgy, without reverence it is profanity and our participation is an abomination.

So, since Christ is due all reverence and adoration, and since it is the tradition and practice of the Church, I kneel before the Lord. Since kneeling at a parish that stands would distrupt the unity of the community or whatever I do not go to such parishes. And I feel very little solidarity with such congregations. I've been to parishes that are so bad you wouldn't have guessed they were Catholic if it wasn't for the sign out front.

And I have stood during the consecration before because of a fear of being disobedient, but it's radically painful. I find it most painful to casually stand while Jesus Christ, the Lord of All, wholly annihilates Himself upon the altar. I feel more than justified in kneeling. And if I was a priest I would be overjoyed if parishoners knelt on the concrete floor out of love and reverence for Christ. They all have that option by the way. The Liturgy is not so rigid on this point. Things like standing when there are no kneelers are the exceptions, the rule is kneeling. So you always have the option to kneel even if it's not the common practice at a parish. Similarly the head bow before receiving is the bare minimum sign of reverence but does not exclude genuflecting, the sign of the cross or kneeling to receive. This is what I was told in a letter from Cardinal Arinze and his congregation which has the legitimate authority, beyond the Bishops conference, to interpret the GIRM.

[Brother Adam]

Isn't this borderline legalism? I mean coming from my perspective, the intent of the heart is much more important than these little naussences (sp?).

[M.SIGGA]

oy Laudate I don't understand not kneeling. At the adoration chapel in my parish there is still a posted instruction for people who haven't been before that it is respectful to genuflect 2 knees when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Isn't this borderline legalism? I mean coming from my perspective, the intent of the heart is much more important than these little naussences (sp?).

From the perspective of the individual certainly the heart has the primacy. But there is much more to Liturgy than intent of the heart. That is the individuals thing and obviously someone who stands could have far more reverence and devotion than someone who kneels. But the question has more to do with the fact that the Liturgy is the public expression of the faith. If the integrity of the Liturgy is not intact you can't rightly say you have Liturgy at all. If the public expression of the faith lacks any signs of reverence or is disedifying it is problematic to say the least.

The Liturgy is the highest, most perfect and most dignified form of worship that exists this side of Heaven. This should be evident in it's outward form. Reverence, transcendence, mystery, etc. The Liturgy also has a sacred dignity which must remain intact. It is not a free for all but is an expression of ancient apostolic faith in union with the hosts of Heaven. For this reason the norms and rubrics of the Liturgy are of great importance. The rubric for the consecration is that the people kneel. There are exceptions based upon logistical considerations, but my point is primarily that even in the case of valid exceptions this does not exclude following the norm if one desires. This is my understanding based on official statements.

You might see this as borderline legalism, I would disagree based on the nature of the legalities in question. And I'm not arguing that everyone should kneel in every circumstance, I've simply been saying that I legitimately choose to kneel without comprimise because it is the most traditional and reverent, because it conforms to the spirit of the Liturgy and because of my spirituality which is not compatible with standing during the consecration in the Mass of the Roman Rite. If I was in an Eastern Church I would stand during the consecration because this takes on a different liturgical meaning in the context of the Eastern Liturgy. I've been to Eastern Liturgies where the congregation falls prostrate on the ground before the Eucharist, that's pretty cool.

[Laudate_Dominum]

oy Laudate I don't understand not kneeling. At the adoration chapel in my parish there is still a posted instruction for people who haven't been before that it is respectful to genuflect 2 knees when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed.

hehe.. dang.

I often wish I was born in the 13th century, before all these novel inventions such as pews. Who need 'em! You can't fall prostrate before the Lord when you are crammed into a pew.

I was reading the Liturgy of St. James a while back and there were some sweet lines that made me wish things were still like that. For example in the litany of supplication it said things like:

"For all the holy fathers and brethren who are agonizing on the mountain tops, dens and caves of the earth, let us pray to the Lord.

Lord have mercy.

And for the penitents who stand outside, let us pray to the Lord.

Lord have mercy.

etc.."

It was incredibly sweet!

[cmotherofpirl]

During our diocese liberal phase, Churches were built without kneelers, thinking this as a way to get around the rules. Times change. :D .

So now if you have no kneelers you are expected to kneel anyway.

Thank God for carpeting.

Brother Adam, if priests and parishoners cannot get simple rules right ( and they are simple) how can we expect them to get their lives in order and live right?

[cimlog]

At our lifeteen masses, all kids in 9-12 grade are invited to the alter. I really enjoy going on the altar and witnessing the consecration closer than where I am sitting. I feel as if I am closer to the action. But noone kneels on the altar. I was always taught to fall to your knees in the prescence of God.

I am the only kid (as far as I know) that kneels. Is it right to still kneel on the altar?