dairygirl4u2c Posted February 17, 2004 Author Share Posted February 17, 2004 (edited) I think you misunderstood my question. Or are you saying that the Pope and others "back in the day" would say that people outside of the Church could be saved? I think you might want to check up on that cuz I'm pretty sure everyone... including the magisterium... thought that you had to be a church going Catholic to be saved. Pope John Paul II said that they.. ie magisterium, pope, people.. had too narrow a definition of the word Catholic. So would I have been immoral to not belief what everyone back in the day believed when I insisted that my take on the word Catholic that JP2 teaches was correct and their's wasn't? I think I may have found the answer ironically in the other section called "dissent in the church": Canon 752: While the assent of faith is not required, a religious submission of intellect and will is to be given to any doctrine which either the Supreme Pontiff or the college of Bishops, exercising their authentic <magisterium,> declare upon a matter of faith or morals, even though they do not intend to proclaim that doctrine by definitive act. Christ's faithful are therefore to ensure that they avoid whatever does not accord with that doctrine. But is this saying that I am being immoral for religious submission to the Truth? Edited February 17, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 The pope at the second Vatican said that the definition of Catholic church was interpreted wrong by everyone back in the day. I wonder about this statement. Would you quote the Vatican II document (LG?)/passage that you're referring to? God bless, Mateo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 dairyG, did my most recent response not answer your question? you may want to check back on page one. if u have questions still, just let me know. pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted February 19, 2004 Author Share Posted February 19, 2004 Yeah you answered my question well Phatcatholic, thanx. I was just wanting to talk with ironmonk some more cuz he didn't answer my question and in fact I don't think he even read my post very well in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_bc Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Maybe we should also consider the odds that we happen to be the first one to stumble upon an improvement to doctrine. Really, which is more likely: that the Church has overlooked something we know, or that we have overlooked something the Church knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 The pope at the second Vatican said that the definition of Catholic church was interpreted wrong by everyone back in the day. I must have missed that... In which Vatican II document does the Holy Father say this? Me thinks you are a tad confused. -_- Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Oh my goodness Mateo el Guapo, great minds must think alike! I had not read your post before submitting my own. Ooops. ^_^ Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamattman1 Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 (edited) interesting Edited February 22, 2004 by megamattman1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted February 22, 2004 Author Share Posted February 22, 2004 (edited) I can't believe that I have to show this to "great minds". I thought it was a given that the Second Vatican clarified that those outside of the official Church could be saved. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day. Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since he gives to all men life and breath and all things (cf. Acts 17:25-28), and since the Savior wills all men to be saved (cf. 1 Tim. 2:4). Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve eternal salvation.[19] Vatican II even wrote (LG # 49): "All who belong to Christ, having His Spirit, coalesce into one Church." And now some history of the church's teaching: "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved" (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council). "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff" (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam). "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church" (Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino). The position taken by the Catholic church historically and that taken after Vatican II are irreconcilable and contradictory. You will find it impossible to admit that the Church was mistaken; with such an acknowledgement the whole structure of infallibility falls like a house of cards. But I think that deep down you can feel the tension. Or since I am willing to play on your level, now back to where we should be: arguing that I should do whatever the heirarchy tells me regardless of its lack of full truth. Because that is, you would argue, itself the truth. Or perhaps this website is misled. Maybe Mel Gibson is right.. the Pope is not really Catholic in the full sense of the word. How do you know he's wrong? Situations like this have happened in the past ya know. And now you can't simply point to what your Church teaches you and say that's final truth since the true church is itself in question. You have to have the gumption to be your own woman and figure it out for yourself. Edited February 22, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Dairygirl, have you read the article I posted in this thread? Hmmmmmm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_rev Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Aren't catholics that don't agree with some doctrines but agree with others called SuperMarket Catholics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 No, Dave. Doubtful that she read it. She's in denial that Jesus Christ established a Church on earth, appointed a vicar to stand in the place of authority, ordained priests to offer the Sacrifice of His Body and Blood to the Father in atonement for the sins of men, gave His priests the ability to forgive men's sins in His name, and sent His Holy Spirit upon His Church to guide it infallibly until the end of time. In fact, I really don't know what she's doing here, except spinning her wheels. -_- Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Aren't catholics that don't agree with some doctrines but agree with others called SuperMarket Catholics? Well, supermarket Catholics is an appropriate name, but cafeteria Catholics is the phrase that's most commonly used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_rev Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 I can't recall what is the defination of Cafeteria Catholics again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 I can't recall what is the defination of Cafeteria Catholics again? A Catholic who picks and chooses which doctrines to believe and obey and ignoring the rest, much like they're in a cafeteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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