Hard As Nails "catholic" Ministry

[Paddington]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1442016' date='Jan 4 2008, 04:56 PM']Does he claim to be very good at reading people himself? That can be a dangerous claim - I've seen it being used to manipulate people who genuinely believe that the speaker knows them better than they know themselves.

This may not be the case with this man, but in my experience people who are truly perceptive are more aware of how much they don't know as opposed to what they do know.[/quote]

A claim like that gives me the same firetruck-bells.

[melikalani]

I watched the HBO documentary and I am upset at how Fatica exploits people - anyone - for his 'ministry'.

The overweight girl said, "Yes, it hurts a little at the beginning when he says I'm fat, but I know that I am." Fatica is [i][b]hurting [/b][/i]her feelings to make a point. She may feel that she's a kind of martyr for their cause, but [b][i]he [/i][/b]is the aggressor who causes her to suffer in order to get his point across. How can someone minister while causing suffering?

In one scene he takes his baby up to somebody during one of the blindfolded 'exercises'. He says something like, "Would you kill your kid for me? Would you?!?" Then he takes the blindfold off of the person, reveals his son and says, "God loved you enough to kill his own kid for you!"

What kind of theology is he teaching? God killed Jesus because He loves me? Just like that? In a nutshell?

I can't imagine the repercussions his child might suffer by being a 'prop' in his roadshow. For a baby to hear over and over again about someone loving you enough to kill their kid for you is too much for a child (and many adults) to even comprehend.

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='God Conquers' post='1436193' date='Dec 19 2007, 03:48 PM']Judging from experience and not practical knowledge of the guy or his ministry, I'd say he just wants people to know Jesus.

I can relate. I like him.

He's probably saying the stuff about the "institutional church" because it's true, for the most part it hasn't been a great role model in Evangelization or witness to Christ.

I know most people here are from the South and Midwest (I think at least) and so might not be able to relate so much to this feeling. But being from Canada I can tell you that speaking about Jesus has in the past and can now, in many places in the Church, get you ostracized and pushed aside.

It looks like this has happened to his ministry a couple times.

Just because something doesn't scream "Catholicism" doesn't mean it isn't genuinely Catholic.[/quote]

When you're forced to be inside by the weather 9 out of 12 months of the year ANYTHING can seem institutional. Although there are JW's and other itenerant preacher types their few and far between becuase weather is prohibitive. Also many midstate NY (where he ministers) folks are part of the great rural sprawl, which is worse than in the south or west becuase people just aren't aware of it.

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1436305' date='Dec 19 2007, 08:36 PM']Have you been sparring without headgear?????
That is why the alarm bells went off in my head when he said he was "chosen by God" to do this.

"Chosen by God" + working with the Church = good, like St. Francis of Assisi.

"Chosen by God" + thinking you are above the chucrh = bad, egomaniac , dangerous cult leader, like Jim Jones; or else look at Martin Luther.[/quote]

I've heard the "chosen by God" line from many people both good and bad. I don't know where life will lead him.


[quote name='Norseman82' post='1436312' date='Dec 19 2007, 08:49 PM']I agree that there are kids that need the "kick in the butts", but you don't START with yelling and screaming; that should be reserved only for the hard-core cases (like the fornicating bums who have contests to see who can have sex with the most girls, or potty-mouthed mean-spirited cliquish snobs). Many of the kids with problems are not overindulged but are, in fact, probably overstressed because they live in an environment in which they have to be the adult in the house due to parental substance abuse, broken marriages, and the like, or they themselves are abused, and the last thing an abused kid needs is more abuse.

One size does not fit all, and one needs the wisdom to know when it doesn't fit.[/quote]

Where he preaches, at least where he was a year ago, is a very rich, hoity-toity parish. Most of the kids at the parish go to private high school (or even private college). When they turned 16 they got new cars.


[quote name='jiyoung' post='1436649' date='Dec 20 2007, 04:56 PM']The whole thing doesn't seem very pastoral to me...Norseman's right, that's not a one-size-fit-all approach and I personally would feel turned off by it. We have a bad enough reputation with the "Catholic guilt," we don't need some guy yelling at us to intensify it. Yes, there are people who need this who have no sense of shame or guilt, but that's not everybody.[/quote]

Its not one-size-fits all. Justin can be, but there are other ministers around who are better for the other kids.


[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1442016' date='Jan 4 2008, 02:26 PM']Does he claim to be very good at reading people himself? That can be a dangerous claim - I've seen it being used to manipulate people who genuinely believe that the speaker knows them better than they know themselves.

This may not be the case with this man, but in my experience people who are truly perceptive are more aware of how much they don't know as opposed to what they do know.[/quote]

No, he never said it (atleast in the few times last year I saw him).

Of the friends who invited me one told Justin about abuse in her past. At that point she felt alot of anger and cruelty towards this person. Justin didn't scream at her or anything. He yells when he's preaching. He yells at the chatty blonde plastics who are there b/c of confirmation class and are texting each other. He has a need to be taken seriously and he will draw the line where it hasn't been for most kids.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='melikalani' post='1442091' date='Jan 4 2008, 04:44 PM']In one scene he takes his baby up to somebody during one of the blindfolded 'exercises'. He says something like, "Would you kill your kid for me? Would you?!?" Then he takes the blindfold off of the person, reveals his son and says, "God loved you enough to kill his own kid for you!"

What kind of theology is he teaching? God killed Jesus because He loves me? Just like that? In a nutshell?

I can't imagine the repercussions his child might suffer by being a 'prop' in his roadshow. For a baby to hear over and over again about someone loving you enough to kill their kid for you is too much for a child (and many adults) to even comprehend.[/quote]

I wonder what his wife thinks of that?

[Didymus]

thats messed up

[XIX]

[quote name='melikalani' post='1442091' date='Jan 4 2008, 05:44 PM']What kind of theology is he teaching? God killed Jesus because He loves me? Just like that? In a nutshell?[/quote]
Not to mention, the theology is completely inaccurate. Jesus [b]chose [/b]to die for our sins. Obviously, a baby who is murdered does not have any choice in the matter.

That's way too easy to refute.

[beata_virgo_maria]

I listened to this ABC clip, and while he seems sincere and well meant, I really think he could benefit from some basic philosophy and theology classes.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R4k302AYpk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R4k302AYpk[/url]

OK I found this video and it is disturbing. I think this guy is a little confused in regards to the church's teaching on suffering. This just seems to be like child abuse to me. Yes he gets a reaction from the kids, but seriously this guy just seems to have pushed the line too far.

[prose]

I thought it was a concrete way to demonstrate to youth what Jesus went through. It isn't like he is beating them.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='prose' post='1442428' date='Jan 5 2008, 03:43 PM']I thought it was a concrete way to demonstrate to youth what Jesus went through. It isn't like he is beating them.[/quote]

Please re-view the You Tube video that beat_virgo_Maria posted, specifically starting at the 16 second point. He did indeed throw the kid to the ground and kick him. Whether or not it is part of the plot or if the guy on the ground agreed to "play the part", I don't know, but still, "macho boy" stunts like this have the potential to go wrong.

[prose]

Were those just kids that he had recently met? Or was that like rehearsing for a show he was doing?

[Noel's angel]

It doesn't matter. His attitude and methods stink.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='prose' post='1442451' date='Jan 5 2008, 04:58 PM']Were those just kids that he had recently met? Or was that like rehearsing for a show he was doing?[/quote]

It looked like they were rehearsing, but still, as someone who does engage in the "rough side of athletics" myself, I clearly have concerns about whether adequate safety precautions are being taken (throwing someone to the floor - I saw no evidence of padding either on the floor or the kid).

[beata_virgo_maria]

Anyway, verbal abuse is real, especially with people who are more sensitive. Yes, speaking the truth is great and should be done more often. Yes, sometimes kids need a "reality check" or a wake-up call. However, screaming violently at kids and kicking kids is not the right way to do this.

[Theologian in Training]

Ok, before I post, I want to tell you that I have not read all the posts on this thread, however, I met Justin and Tim tonight, and heard confessions for the Hard As Nails retreat. A good priest friend of mine has taken them under his wing and was asking me for advice about them, and what I thought and all the rest, so if you have practical feedback, feel free and let me know.

Now then, the guy is genuine, through and through, he comes off intense, because he is intense, very intense, but he told me what softened him a bit was having a child, he said his entire life changed after that. BTW, I am speaking about Justin. He intentionally does what he does to bring stuff up and, many times, succeeding where others have failed. His style is not for all, granted, but he brought out some intense things and some of the counselors (brought there by the team) were very concerned about some of the stuff that was coming up.

Personally, I have dealt with him before, on the campus of Seton Hall. He wound up really hurting a friend of mine, tonight, he asked me for his number so that he could apologize. My friend, at the time, was a fallen-away Catholic, who was exploring Buddhism, but has since returned to the Catholic faith. If that is not genuine I don't know what is.

I have not seen the documentary yet, but do have it, and will watch it when I get a chance. He told me that some of the parts of that were misconstrued. The woman he called "fat" was a friend of his and he knew she could take it, yes, a little extreme for some, but he did know who he was "preaching" to. In fact, many of the people on the documentary or either part of his team or friends of his, the show failed to mention those little details. Again, I can tell you more after I watch the video.

He is very charismatic, as is another guy, by the name of Tim. Their intensity is definitely linked to that, however, I, personally, think there might be a little too much of it.

Now to the critique, and I told me friend this. The man is genuine and he is doing good things, even my friend likened him to a modern day St. Francis. My problem is that his theology is very "soft" and it is more about emotions than anything else, almost "Evangelical," in a sense. The problem I can see from that is that the sacraments become a state of emotion rather than anything else. Don't get me wrong, the man knows theology, but I think, given his past, he is afraid to use it, for fear of how many he hurt. He also has this concept of "we are all one in God," which we certainly are, but sometimes it seems he drives it home so much to the detriment of a Catholic identity. Finally, he is a very holy man and may be intense for a lot of people, but you can see he tries to do what is right and what God wants him to do, and he has something many people do not have, no fear, he would be happy to be a martyr, even despite his great family.

So, that's it, if you have any more feedback I am all ears. My friend is trying to help them become something and he needs to know what is turning people off the most, and needs to examine the reasons some people like them and some people hate them.

In the end though, he and his entire team are very genuine and are truly "preaching," not as an "unordained priest," he would never see that, but as a disciple of Christ.

[dUSt]

Well, I know that one of the Hard as Nails ministers ordered one of the phatmass logo tees with our mission statement on the back... that's a good sign. haha