Fallen Away Catholics And Outsiders...

[Akalyte]

I come across a lot of fallen away catholics and outsiders who all share the same understanding about religion and the church in general. They think the church is greedy, the dont trust religion, they dont trust the pope (especially Benedict XVI) They tend to all have the same politics (liberal). I come across these kind of people A LOT. I end up debating with them. Many of them have the same old "my church is at home and in my heart" kind of thinking. What is all this madness???

[hyperdulia again]

Well, it is madness. (Not saying that it is madness to be an ex/lapsed Catholic.)

[MissyP89]

Bad catechesis.

Really, really bad catechesis.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1435391' date='Dec 17 2007, 08:13 PM']Bad catechesis.

Really, really bad catechesis. [/quote]You hit it right on the head. They've probably gotten more "education" about the Church from sources like Hollywood and Cable (e.g. Discovery Channel) than any religious education.

My own Sunday school experience was pretty lame. It was something akin to being the precursor to Barney the Dinosaur philosophy: "I love you, you love me." Not many Catholic distintives. For example, I think we finally got around to learning the "Hail Mary" in 5th or 6th grade. With such an experience, it's pretty easy to see how people could choose to walk away without thinking much of such a decision.

As far as criticisms against the pope go, there's probably an extremely effective/simple response: "How much of the Pope's writings have you read in order to arrive at an informed opinion of him?"

[Ash Wednesday]

Relativism.

And agreed on the catechesis thing.

[Lil Red]

what i don't understand is the same Catholics who still receive the Eucharist, when they don't agree with the Church about anything.

i know it's that they believe the Eucharist is a symbol of communion, but still, if you are not 'in communion' with what the Church teaches, isn't that still wrong?

[carrdero]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1435491' date='Dec 18 2007, 12:14 AM']what i don't understand is the same Catholics who still receive the Eucharist, when they don't agree with the Church about anything.

i know it's that they believe the Eucharist is a symbol of communion, but still, if you are not 'in communion' with what the Church teaches, isn't that still wrong?[/quote]
Has anyone considered that maybe the reason people fall away is because they realized that the church could be wrong (for them)?

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1435538' date='Dec 18 2007, 12:08 AM']Has anyone considered that maybe the reason people fall away is because they realized that the church could be wrong (for them)?[/quote]

To say that Truth is wrong for someone is equivocal to saying air is wrong for the lungs or love a bad match for the spirit.

I could no more wake up tomorrow and honestly claim "Truth is not for me" than I could say "a beating heart is not my cup of tea." ...Unless, of course, I had never fully understood the workings of life and the necessity of what sustains me as a human person. Or, worse yet, if someone had misled me with a false anatomy. Regardless, in my alternate preference, I would be erring to tragic consequence.

[carrdero]

[quote]PapaHilarious writes: To say that Truth is wrong for someone is equivocal to saying air is wrong for the lungs or love a bad match for the spirit.[/quote]
Well from what I have observed is that there are many other companies peddling this same “Truth” with new and improved interpretations, with half the obligation to soul or spirit. Some religions even offer a refund on this existence if one is not totally satisfied.

[quote]PapaHilarious writes:I could no more wake up tomorrow and honestly claim "Truth is not for me" than I could say "a beating heart is not my cup of tea."[/quote]

Anyone can claim they have the Truth, I would be more impressed if one could honestly prove they have the Truth.

[quote]PapaHilarious writes: Unless, of course, I had never fully understood the workings of life and the necessity of what sustains me as a human person.[/quote]

I would also accept this kind of honesty until the Truth is proven.

[Starets]

If they do not believe what the chruch believes, they have no business receiving the Eucharist. thats just sad

[S][N]

Wouldn't believing in a non-existant being, based on a faulty book be more madness than seeing people in the church for who they are?

Sorry to break it to you, but just because you gain a rank of authority or esteem within the Church (or any church for that matter), does not make you immune to the faults of mankind.

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1435555' date='Dec 18 2007, 03:27 AM']Well from what I have observed is that there are many other companies peddling this same “Truth” with new and improved interpretations, with half the obligation to soul or spirit. Some religions even offer a refund on this existence if one is not totally satisfied.
Anyone can claim they have the Truth, I would be more impressed if one could honestly prove they have the Truth.
I would also accept this kind of honesty until the Truth is proven.[/quote]

To quote Pilat: [i]"Quid est veritas?"[/i] ...

The funny thing about "proof" is that it is subject to the eye of the beholder. We cannot [i]prove[/i] love, after all, and yet we know it to exist. Should you refuse to acknowledge that air is necessary to your being, to you then, there is no air and no one will ever dissuade you with any theories, examples, or explanations. If you refuse to accept 1+1=2, then you are free to live life with your own equation, but would you be right?

Just as in the laws of mathematics, the nature of existence is objective. In a universe where something unequivocally cannot come from nothing, there is the undeniable truth that our existence, bound by the laws of science, could not have created itself.

To think relatively is to deny all absolutes across the spectrum, not just in human relations and experiences but in math and science. Proof of God [i]is[/i] science.

[S][N]

....roffle

[elizabeth_jane]

[quote name='S][N' post='1435595' date='Dec 18 2007, 10:19 AM']
Wouldn't believing in a non-existant being, based on a faulty book be more madness than seeing people in the church for who they are?

Sorry to break it to you, but just because you gain a rank of authority or esteem within the Church (or any church for that matter), does not make you immune to the faults of mankind.[/quote]

Then I guess you're discounting all Christianity?
Your second point is ambiguous--what exactly do you mean? As for Catholicism, while, of course, it is made up of men, and men are imperfect, Jesus said that the "gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." So even though it is run by imperfect people, God preserves it from teaching error. Now that's based on the "faulty book" and a "non-existent being", but that's what we've got.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1435367' date='Dec 17 2007, 05:13 PM']Many of them have the same old "my church is at home and in my heart" kind of thinking. What is all this madness???[/quote]
It's easier to place our relationship with God in a heart-shaped box. Going to church & being part of a larger community is challenging. I think a lot of people are lazy.