The Scandal Of The Monastic Life

[cathoholic_anonymous]

The cross was not masochistic, because Jesus did not permit himself to be crucified out of a desire to experience crucifixion. He let himself be killed for the sake of those he loved. It brought us closer to him. It had a purpose.

Penance is good. I don't think anybody here denies that. But penance must be purposeful. If you're doing it purely for the sake of the pain and the endurance and the extravagance of self-inflicted violence - which is what masochism means, and what some now-obsolete penances can so easily become - there is something very wrong.

I ask you again: was St Therese of Lisieux any less holy than the ascetics who lived high up on pillars, because she refused to take part in extreme physical penances?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='frateumile' post='1437118' date='Dec 21 2007, 11:16 AM']I beg God to give us many vocations for a traditional monastic life. "Penance or Hell" there was writ in Padre Pio cell!

franciscan-archive.org/sosm/Flyer.pdf[/quote]
is this organization/person supported by their Bishop?

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1437675' date='Dec 22 2007, 06:14 PM']Let's remember that Frate Umile's first language isn't English and he may even be using an online translator on some parts, so let's show mercy and understanding as God does and calls us to.[/quote]agreed.

please remember people, mods cannot patrol every single thread - so it's important that you, as phatmassers, report threads you think might be objectionable. thank you

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1434976' date='Dec 16 2007, 03:49 PM']Yes! Saint Therese was treated with scepticism by some members of her community (could Sister Therese of the Child Jesus [i]really[/i] be as holy as some people made out?) because she refused to take part in the more austere penances favoured by the nuns at that Carmel. She would not hit herself, for example, even though self-flagellation was a widely accepted custom of the time. Yet could anybody call St Therese lukewarm or modernist in her thinking? She loved Jesus with everything she had, and she knew that He loved her. Secure in this knowledge, she saw no reason to put on a show of being holy according to the other nuns' expectations of her. So she didn't participate in all their penances.
I may be blind, but the Holy Spirit is a good guide-dog. Be careful with how you dismiss people, Frate Umile. Jesus' reference to logs and specks comes to mind here.[/quote]

Actually, St. Therese, did take the discipline, and severely. When she gave herself the discipline, she wanted to feel it, because she didn't believe in doing anything by half measures. I don't know about St. Therese participating in community penances, but her spirituality is VERY penitential if lived out correctly. A true spirit of penance is central to her spirituality!

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1437569' date='Dec 22 2007, 02:54 PM']Firstly, humility is [i]not[/i] the same as humiliation. I ask to be humbled, not humiliated. Different things.

Secondly, punishing the body and referring to it as the source of every temptation and sin is a heresy. It's a form of dualism. Unlike certain Protestant denominations, we believe in a physical resurrection - and this doctrine tells me all I need to know about the body's beauty and wonder in the eyes of God. When I fast, I'm not doing it to punish myself or to make my body hurt. I'm doing it to increase what we call [i]taqwa[/i] in Arabic, a word that I've never been able to translate to my satisfaction. It is best summed up by the full and joyful realisation of a line from the famous prayer written by St Alphonsus of Liguori: "Soul of my soul, I adore thee." Fasting can help me to reach that realisation - it teaches me about what really matters in life and encourages me to act with true compassion towards those who do not have enough to eat. But if I start to feel ill during a fast, I always get something to eat and drink. It's important to be able to differentiate between penance and self-harm. Penance done in any other spirit leads to pride and exaltation of one's own capabilities for endurance.

Thirdly, this modern world is no more sinful than ancient Palestine was in the year of Jesus' birth. These 'illusions and vanities' that you speak of as being part of our current times are nothing new, as the opening refrain of the ancient book of Ecclesiastes makes clear: "Vanity, vanity, all is vanity!" Wherever there are human beings, there is sin. It may change shape over the years, but it is always there. It's easy to blame modernity for our sins, as this is a convenient escape route for us - it allows us to judge people under the guise of being holy and to distract ourselves from the painful knowledge that we are what we condemn.[/quote]

How can you be humble without being humiliated?

[Starets]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1438638' date='Dec 26 2007, 06:37 PM']How can you be humble without being humiliated?[/quote]
Being humbled involves accepting the truth of who you are and your limitations, recognising that what good is in you is the gift of God for service to others and what is bad in you is your own, and cheerfully depending on God. That can be done without humiliation. Admittedly though, somepeople will not learn humility without humiliation.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1438637' date='Dec 26 2007, 11:36 PM']Actually, St. Therese, did take the discipline, and severely. When she gave herself the discipline, she wanted to feel it, because she didn't believe in doing anything by half measures. I don't know about St. Therese participating in community penances, but her spirituality is VERY penitential if lived out correctly. A true spirit of penance is central to her spirituality! [/quote]

I learnt that she was not harsh with her body from a Carmelite novice mistress (Ruth Burrows) who has written books on Therese's spirituality among many other subjects. The relevant passage is in [i]To Believe in Jesus[/i]. The only reference to Therese taking the discipline that I can find is a suspiciously poetic description that talks about the speed of her whipping and how 'tears bedewed her eyelashes' as she stared at her crucifix. But this doesn't quite fit somehow, as physical penance is practised in the solitude of the cell and there could have been no one to witness it, let alone get close enough to see the tears on Therese's eyelashes. Quite a few myths and poetic flights of fancy surround the story of Therese. If she writes about flogging herself till she cried anywhere in her own writings, please let me know - it's possible that I am mistaken. I am going by only one source, after all.

I'm not denying that penance is important. It's crucial. But I don't believe that subjecting yourself to extremes is usually a sign of a penitential spirit. It's very easy to mistake fanaticism for fervour and praise it accordingly.

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1438704' date='Dec 26 2007, 09:06 PM']I learnt that she was not harsh with her body from a Carmelite novice mistress (Ruth Burrows) who has written books on Therese's spirituality among many other subjects. The relevant passage is in [i]To Believe in Jesus[/i]. The only reference to Therese taking the discipline that I can find is a suspiciously poetic description that talks about the speed of her whipping and how 'tears bedewed her eyelashes' as she stared at her crucifix. But this doesn't quite fit somehow, as physical penance is practised in the solitude of the cell and there could have been no one to witness it, let alone get close enough to see the tears on Therese's eyelashes. Quite a few myths and poetic flights of fancy surround the story of Therese. If she writes about flogging herself till she cried anywhere in her own writings, please let me know - it's possible that I am mistaken. I am going by only one source, after all.

I'm not denying that penance is important. It's crucial. But I don't believe that subjecting yourself to extremes is usually a sign of a penitential spirit. It's very easy to mistake fanaticism for fervour and praise it accordingly.[/quote]
Um. I've never read anything about Saint Therese crying from giving herself the discipline. However, I can say with certainty that she was known to hit herself violently when she did take the discipline (which all Carmelites did at that time). I don't think this should be surprising, since it was a common monastic practice at that time.

[Saint Therese]

My comments on our brother's comments on monasticism are these: Whether or not you agree with everything he is saying specifically, it is true that the indulgence of our bodies (and the following vices/sins such as gluttony, lust, sloth) are running rampant in our society, and it is very possible that this spirit of indulgence has filtered down into our monastic communities. A true spirit of penance is one of the best remedies to this spirit of indulgence.
I must say I am more than a little surprised at the reaction in this phorum to our brother's comments on penance and monastic life. Someone even wrote that God desires mercy,not sacrifice, and that God is a God of love,not self-abuse. Surely there is not such a lack of understanding among us about something as basic as penance? Our brother is calling us to penane, which should be a good thing. It is so necessary to a genuine spiritual life. Some Saint said that a person who thinks themselves holy but does not punish(mortify) his body is deluded.

Edited December 27, 2007 by Saint Therese

[Thomist-in-Training]

[quote]Physical penance is practised in the solitude of the cell[/quote]... According to a book called "My Beloved" written by a Carmelite nun in the 50s (I can find more details if someone is interested), the discipline was (is?) taken in choir, by all the nuns at the same time, such and such number of nights per month. Yes? No?

[ovenbird03]

I don't think anyone is saying that penance is bad. I think it is more of a concern that penance, especially the kind of penances the original poster was describing, must be done ONLY under a competent spiritual director or confessor. Penance is certainly important, but it is the METHOD of penance that was being debated. Corporal penances such as fasting (outside the norms of the Church) can be dangerous both physically and spiritually. A competent spiritual director or confessor must wisely discern the motive for partaking in such a penance and must keep watch over it. Penance (of any kind) done in the wrong spirit can lead to pride rather than humility.

Please remember St. Anthony of the Desert who warned the other monks that the Devil can tempt people to fast and pray in such a way that is physically and spiritually harmful.

[Starets]

[b]Abba and the Bowman [/b]
A hunter in the desert saw Abba Anthony enjoying himself with the brethren and he was shocked. Wanting to show him that it was necessary sometimes to meet the needs of the brethren, the old man said to him,
"Put an arrow in your bow and shoot it."
So he did. The old man then said,
"Shoot another,"
and he did so. Then the old man said,
"Shoot yet again,"
and the hunter replied,
"If I bend my bow so much I will break it."
Then the old man said to him,
"It is the same with the work of God. If we stretch the brethren beyond measure they will soon break. Sometimes it is necessary to come down to meet their needs."
When he heard these words the hunter was pierced by compunction and, greatly edified by the old man, he went away. As for the brethren, they went home strengthened.

[frateumile]

During the later part of the 19th century, Saint Thérèse of the Child Jesus, Doctor of the Church, at three years of age was described by her mother: "Even Thérèse is anxious to practice mortification.” And Thérèse later wrote: "My God, I will not be a saint by halves. I am not afraid of suffering for Thee.” The "Little Flower", famous for her "little way" and love of God -- hard fasted, wore the cilice and used the 'discipline' vigorously, "scourging herself with all the strength and speed of which she was capable, smiling at the crucifix through the tears which bedewed her eyelashes," according to one of her biographers.
In the early 20th century, The seers of Fatima said they were told by the angel: "In every way you can offer sacrifice to God in reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and in supplication for sinners. In this way you will bring peace to our country, for I am its guardian angel, the Angel of Portugal. Above all, bear and accept with patience the sufferings God will send you." They reported that the idea of making sacrifices was repeated several times by the Virgin Mary. The children wore tight cords around their waist and abstained from drinking water on hot days. The Virgin Mary reportedly told them that God was pleased with their sacrifices and bodily penances.

All the souls are not called from God to the sacrifice of the penance. But those that He calls they are not considered fanatical and masochist. God has only called Himself to the crucifixion and He has been limited to say that who wants to follow Him leaves the things of the world, the house and the affections and he loads the cross on his shoulders. It is useless to deny it: the cross is weight, pain and suffering. If then we are not disposed to admit it it is because we have fear and we are of the lukewarm Christians. For our fortune the Saints did not think it therefore and Our Lord in His infinite Mercy still gives us gifts like this because they can save to us.

[url="http://www.carmelitemonks.org/index.html"]http://www.carmelitemonks.org/index.html[/url]

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Frateumile, the passage on St Therese's beating herself until she cried is taken almost word-for-word from Wikipedia. I've already quoted that passage. My problem is that I can't find a more authoritative source.

Secondly, no one is denying that mortification is necessary.

What we are concerned about is the MANNER of mortification that you are advocating. This sort of thing can very easily become a test of one's own endurance rather than genuine penance and a symptom of either self-loathing or pride. Yes, pride.

As Brendan suggests, you may not be very good at a picking up on the nuances in the English language. Perhaps a Phatmasser who speaks your first language could translate.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1438710' date='Dec 27 2007, 03:31 AM']Someone even wrote that God desires mercy,not sacrifice, and that God is a God of love,not self-abuse.[/quote]

"I desire mercy, not sacrifice," is a direct quotation from the Bible.

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1438843' date='Dec 27 2007, 12:23 PM']Frateumile, the passage on St Therese's beating herself until she cried is taken almost word-for-word from Wikipedia. I've already quoted that passage. My problem is that I can't find a more authoritative source.

Secondly, no one is denying that mortification is necessary.

What we are concerned about is the MANNER of mortification that you are advocating. This sort of thing can very easily become a test of one's own endurance rather than genuine penance and a symptom of either self-loathing or pride. Yes, pride.

As Brendan suggests, you may not be very good at a picking up on the nuances in the English language. Perhaps a Phatmasser who speaks your first language could translate. [/quote]
I'm pretty sure that St. Therese herself mentions giving herself the discipline in the Story of a Soul, but I'm not positive; I could have read it in the testimonies for her beatification, or perhaps some of her letters. I'll research it and get back to you.