I Got Into A Fight At Church.

[stbernardLT]

The permission she said was granted by the pastor. This woman has most likely never read the GIRM. Give her a break. It is the pastor's responsibilty to know the rules and folllow them. That hasn't changed with Vatican II, the faithful still seek guidance from the pastor of their parish, the difference is that now many pastors are giving out bad information. We can't expect everyone to know everything about the Catholic Churche and abuses.

And she is not wrong for arguing with you, because she trusted what her pastor said over what you said. I probably would have also, unless I was definite that it was the wrong information.

Jesus got angry for people willing and knowingly using the temple (actually the entrance, where people purchased animals for sacrifice) for bad business. This women was following what she thought was Godly guidance, which she is expected to do, unless she knew otherwise. The next day in the priests office would have been the best place for a discussion.

[bonoducchi]

I think truth lies somewhere in the middle. Yes, the kids should not be running behind the altar, but to them, its still just the table where Father says that long boring part of Mass.

In my parish, when kids stray into the sanctuary, I gently lead them out, and tell them that the altar is a very important symbol of Jesus (GIRM 298) and we need to respect it by being quiet when we are near it. If the kids want to "say Hi" to Jesus, I show them how to kneel and pray in a pew.

Don't make them afraid of the sanctuary - just teach them some some space is more holy than other space. Many fallen away Catholics cite disconnection from God while in church (the space) as the source of their disillusionment with the Church (the people of God). "Fear of the Lord" shouldn't drive us from him.

And I would have a hard time calling some kids doing what I assume to be some sort of Christmas-themed pageant a sacrilege. Bottom line advice - reduce your caffeine intake and say three Glory Be's.

Edited December 14, 2007 by VaticanIILiturgist

[IcePrincessKRS]

I don't think you should have talked to the pastor [i]instead.[/i] I think you should talk to him [i]as well.[/i] There is always room for improvement in our actions, but I don't think you were acting entirely out of line. Those women needed to told that what they were instructing the kids to do was improper.

We're not talking about near the altar, or by it. They don't belong up there playing around. If they're old enough to be in the choir they are also most likely old enough to serve on the altar; they are within the age of reason and should know that playing around on the altar is not the way to behave in Church. These aren't toddlers. I wouldn't assume that they are probably culpable for it since they were doing what they were told, but it shouldn't have been done in the first place.

So, yeah, I may have used different words, but I'd have taken my kid and told them she wasn't participating in that.

[Justin86]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1434263' date='Dec 15 2007, 12:20 AM']I told her kind of forcefully that this is the alter of the Most High God and NOT a stage. Kids should not be hiding behind it, walking all around it, and they should not be lined up at the rear of the alter like stage left/stage right. [b]She agreed that the kid should not be hiding behind the alter[/b], but said the rest was not meant to be disrespectful. She just didn't seem to get it.[/quote]
So tell me again why everyone keeps saying this woman [i]didn't[/i] know kids shouldn't be playing up on the altar? She explicitly said she did. We don't always need a priest to tell us how to act in church, often its common sense. This woman [i]knew[/i] what the kids were doing was sacrilege but was just to lazy to stop them. She in no way should be a choir director.

I agree with Iceprincess that you should talk to your priest. Kudos for how you handled the woman however.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='stbernardLT' post='1434303' date='Dec 14 2007, 09:26 AM']The next day in the priests office would have been the best place for a discussion.[/quote]
with her, the priest and you. agreed.

[stbernardLT]

I for one have no problem with the playing on the altar issue. That is a no brainer.

My concern is the whole "you can't do a play during Mass" issue. Apparently the woman did not know and she believed her Priest. That seems to be the issue that really lit the fire and caused the withdrawal from the choir. The quoting of the GIRM was not needed for a child playing on the altar, that is understood. The director was wrong in this resepct, but I can't say she knew about the whole liturgical abuse situation.

Her being at the meeting would be fine, as long as the Priest is a good conflict resolver and the arguement doesn't end up worse becuase he is being put on the spot in front of someone else.

[curtins]

groo:

we need more people like you willing to be daring

God and daring.


talk to your pastor as well.

[Jaime]

The first rule about church fights is you don't talk about church fights

[jeffpugh]

Says you...

[Justin86]

uh-oh, church fight

[Deb]

I think you did the correct thing. I am just surprised that an adult was supervising these kids and didn't instruct them as to proper behavior when even near the altar.

The children in my church (even the little ones) genuflect when they walk past the adoration chapel, with the door closed! I have never seen them anywhere near the altar. No excuse for the behavior you witnessed, especially with an adult around.


Now, If I could just stop the adults from chattering prior to mass starting. I am trying to pray here.

[Justin86]

[quote name='Deb' post='1434474' date='Dec 15 2007, 12:52 PM']Now, If I could just stop the adults from chattering prior to mass starting. I am trying to pray here.[/quote]
The best way to do that is to get Jesus back on the altar. When that happens everyone has to shut up then.

[elizabeth_jane]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1434268' date='Dec 14 2007, 10:36 AM']You should have picked the woman up and tossed her into a fiery volcano. As she protests you could be saying, "Well, I'm just following my conscience on the matter." [i]That[/i] would have been better.

Seriously though, I don't think you should feel guilty about getting angry. Jesus got so angry He chased people out of the Temple one time. I think your reaction was pretty mild.[/quote]

LOL--picking up the woman and tossing her into the inferno...I can just see it!
I agree--you shouldn't feel guilty about getting angry. There is such a thing as "righteous anger."

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1434475' date='Dec 14 2007, 09:54 PM']The best way to do that is to get Jesus back on the altar. When that happens everyone has to shut up then.[/quote]
Amen

[elizabeth_jane]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1434504' date='Dec 15 2007, 12:08 AM']Amen[/quote]

Second!
Then, of course, you have to make sure that people know about the Real Presence...it's amazing and very sad how many don't believe it....