I Got Into A Fight At Church.

[Groo the Wanderer]

Hi Pham. I have been really bummed about an altercation I got into last night at church. I'm upset about the situation and wondering if I could have/should have handled it better. Need hugs.

I had dropped off my daughter at choir practice and went to goof in the office for a while. The secretary told me that Father had just gotten a new icon for the church and asked if I wanted to see it. Icons? *bounce, bounce* You betcha! So we headed down to the church, since it was locked in one of the confessionals for the time being.

After looking at the icon, we went back into the church to see how the kids were coming along at practice. One of them was behind the alter dancing in circles. The secretary got livid and told the kid choir director to control the kids or they would have to leave, then she left. I stuck around to see what was up.

As they started walking through their thing, I realized it was some kind of play/skit/whatever. One kid was ducked down behind the alter table hiding while others were lined up in the doorway to the sacramentary and the tabernacle room.

Something inside me snapped. It seemed so...wrong somehow. I stopped the practice and told the kid choir director that this is unacceptable. She didn't seem to understand so I turned to the lady from the adult choir (not the director) that was assisting and explained what was wrong.

I told her kind of forcefully that this is the alter of the Most High God and NOT a stage. Kids should not be hiding behind it, walking all around it, and they should not be lined up at the rear of the alter like stage left/stage right. She agreed that the kid should not be hiding behind the alter, but said the rest was not meant to be disrespectful. She just didn't seem to get it.

I let her know that if this was supposed to be taking place during Mass, that it was illicit and wrong. She tried to say that the pastor and asst. pastor had said it was OK, but I shut her down by saying they did not have the authority to add things to the Mass. Only the bishops can do this. I told her that turning the alter into a stage is like making the alter table into a picnic table. I said if we wanted to be entertained at church, we should attend a Protestant service with overhead screens, powerpoints, and rock bands. Mas is to be holy and sacred, and anything not outlined in the GIRM is not part of the liturgy and doesn't belong.

I told them both that my daughter will not be allowed to take part in this...whatever it is. They asked if she could still sing at Mass since she is the lead singer in the choir. I may have overreacted when I answered. I said "Not if this stuff is happening. She shall not be a part of this sacrilege."

She made me even more livid when she rolled out that whole "well, you have to follow your conscience" line. I am SO tired of people throwing that out to justify everything. They forget that the other part of that directive is that the conscience has to be properly formed according to Church teaching first. I was not merely following my conscience, but rather the teachings of the Pope and the Church about the carp that has sneaked into the Mass over the past 40 years...and I told her that.

Then I took my daughter and left.

*sigh*

Was I out of line? Did I overreact? Could I have handled it better?

Edited December 14, 2007 by Groo the Wanderer

[Justin86]

You should have picked the woman up and tossed her into a fiery volcano. As she protests you could be saying, "Well, I'm just following my conscience on the matter." [i]That[/i] would have been better.

Seriously though, I don't think you should feel guilty about getting angry. Jesus got so angry He chased people out of the Temple one time. I think your reaction was pretty mild.

[alicemary]

when I was a child(an I am 54 now) we had skits done at church. We had choral recitations by the altar.
This is a church, they had the permission of the pastor to be doing this. You were out of line. You had no right to intefere. If you wish to disagree with this, then talk to your pastor. It serves no purpose denying your daughter the chance to sing. Quite frankly, you must have looked very foolish, and boorish. You don't win your point by being a bully.

[stbernardLT]

I think this should have been taken up with the pastor, not a volunteer, who probably only knows what the pastor is telling her and giving her permission to do. Your anger was relevant, but It could have been handled better.

And I don't thing yelling and arguing in church is any more respectful than the kids running around. And I don't think Jesus's actions in the temple should be compared to this.

Sorry if I upset you by my response.

I think this is also a good oppurtunity for some advent forgiveness between two people both trying to be a helpful part of the Catholic Church. Give her a call.

[Justin86]

Jesus turned over the tables of the money lenders in the Temple, and chased them out. He didn't bother going to the people who put let them into the Temple first. Again, I think its pretty mild compared to what Jesus did.

[Justin86]

[quote name='alicemary' post='1434272' date='Dec 15 2007, 12:47 AM']You don't win your point by being a bully.[/quote]
Sometimes it's not about winning or losing an argument, but standing up for Our Lord and demand that He be respected and honored like the One, True God that He is.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='stbernardLT' post='1434277' date='Dec 14 2007, 10:04 AM']I think this should have been taken up with the pastor, not a volunteer, who probably only knows what the pastor is telling her and giving her permission to do.

And I don't thing yelling and arguing in church is any more respectful than the kids running around. And I don't think Jesus's actions in the temple should be compared to this.[/quote]

Problem is that it was 630pm and neither priest was around at the time. I felt compelled to do something. It's not like I chased them out of the church or anything.

No yelling involved at all. I made my point forcefully, but not violently.

As for permission for this, I refer you to GIRM 24:

24. These adaptations consist for the most part in the choice of certain rites or texts, that is, of the chants, readings, prayers, explanations, and gestures that may respond better to the needs, preparation, and culture of the participants and that are entrusted to the priest celebrant. Nevertheless, the priest must remember that he is the servant of the Sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass.

I do not think he gave permission to have the sanctuary violated and the alter disrespected.

[praying4carmel]

One of the Reasons I left the Episcopalians in 1972 was over Liturgical Dancing and Guitar masses so I see your point.

However, I do pray for a reconciliation between you both as St.Bernard Suggested.

As Alicemary suggested, I would talk to your pastor. Hiding and running around the tabernacle would bother me too. However our Lord does love children and understands their joy.

Bless you,
P4C

[Church Punk]

I understand your frustration. I have been in situations with things before and in my experience everything just gets so messed you and you are painted as the bad guy. On one hand it is right for you to step up and point out where things are wrong, but on the other hand, can you blame these people.

We have had 40 odd years of poor CCD and RCIA courses. People don't know what or why we even do things the way we do at mass anymore. Thank God for websites like Phatmass, which teach what is the correct way of conduct.

Perhaps a better approach would have been to simply pull the director a side after wards or during and explain very calmly what was going on and how it made you feel and why it was wrong. She may not even know what she was doing is wrong, I don't think she went out of her way to commit a sin like this.

I know I am working on acting calmly and biting my tongue at times too, because it is infuriating see sacrileges committed. But we have to remember to act with charity.

And as for Jesus turning the table over in the temple, I think that is a little different here. They openly were selling in the temple even though they knew it to be wrong. For that Christ was vengefully.

Edited December 15, 2007 by Era Might

[catholicinsd]

Just a tad.

[Justin86]

[quote name='Church Punk' post='1434294' date='Dec 15 2007, 02:08 AM']And as for Jesus turning the table over in the temple, I think that is a little different here. They openly were selling in the temple even though they knew it to be wrong. For that Christ was vengefully.[/quote]
The woman openly admitted she knew children shouldn't be running up around the altar, but was letting them do it anyway. I think she knew it was wrong.

[Laudate_Dominum]

It doesn't sound like you overreacted to me. What they are doing is sacrilege and a terrible sin (although I'm sure they're clueless). I think you were just doing your duty as a parent by removing your daughter from a spiritually dangerous setting. Besides doing your duty as a parent it sounds like you were just defending the faith. I had a similar experience several years ago at a parish in which I was a member of the St. Vincent De Paul Society. It wasn't as extreme a situation though, I was asked to go up and give a homily type thing on the society and all that. I explained why I was utterly opposed to the idea and as in your case nobody seemed to understand. In the end they agreed and dropped the issue but I think it was just to shut me up, haha.
As far as handling it better, sure, I think there is always that possibility, but in my opinion it doesn't sound like you were out of line.

[praying4carmel]

We have had 40 odd years of poor CCD and RCIA courses. People don't know what or why we even do things the way we do at mass anymore. Thank God for websites like Phatmass, which teach what is the correct way of conduct.

AGREED 100%

Edited December 15, 2007 by Era Might

[Justin86]

So the beer smilie is just because its Friday I assume?

[Starets]

i think you did the right thing. I am not familiar with the GIRM or with the usual rules for how the churh is to be used. I am, however, familiar with the Rule of St Benedict. Papa Benny (of Norcia) clearly states that the Monastery Church is only to be used for worship and nothing else is to be done or stored there. At Christ in the Desert, which I will be joining in 102 days, 18 hours, 21 minutes and 32 seconds, that is exactly what happens with the Abbey Church.