Hell... How Easy Is It?

[prose]

Which answer comes closest to your feelings on the matter. I know some overlap, I am just trying to see what people think.

You can choose more than one answer

I have heard all of these, so I want to know your opinions.

No politically correct stuff. I know what the Church teaches, I know we don't personally judge. I just want to see what people's understandings are of these teachings.

[Lena]

The more the merrier. I said most people will be saved, I believe in a benevolent God.

[Ash Wednesday]

I voted that "there is a special place in heaven for Phatmassers."

I really don't like to speculate too much, because God only knows. If I put a lot of thought into it one way or another, I would become either 1.) lax with complacency and indifference or 2.) frozen with fear and despair.

I trust that whatever the amount is would be perfectly just, because God judges with perfect justice and mercy.

Edited December 10, 2007 by Ash Wednesday

[XIX]

Haha, I only voted for the last option. It honestly endangers my souls to speculate about the salvation of others.

I am in a state of grace. For the most part, that's all that I should really be concerned with. Even with regards to the salvation of others, I can't really do anything about it unless I am in God's grace. Anything else is out of my control.

If someone has led a sacramental life for years before their death, accepted the Catholic Church and all of her teachings (like birth control, transubstantiation, etc.), received Holy Communion at least once per week (preferably more), had a devotion to Mary, and received anointing of the sick before dying, I would say that person is most likely going to Heaven. Likewise some someone who died before the age of 7 and was baptized in water. Beyond that, I just don't speculate. Maybe 98% of everyone is going to heaven. Maybe 98% are going to Hell. Maybe Margaret Sanger scraped her way into Purgatory. Maybe Ghandi...didn't.

I will concede that I tend to believe that unbaptized infants are baptized by desire. Given that, I guess I would say that most people are saved if you absolutely forced me to guess. So I probably should have voted for that also. But I just don't like to think about that stuff. I can't really control what happens to the unborn, beyond praying for them and perhaps convincing a mother to keep her baby.

Personally, I think there's a reason that God doesn't make it obvious as to how many people are saved. If He wanted us to know, Jesus would have said something less cryptic than "eye of a needle." At the very least, there would have been a Vatican document outlining how many people are saved. I think He just wanted it to be nebulous, so he pretty much made it like this, where you could use any number of arguments for or against someone being in Heaven.

I'm not sure why God didn't make it more clear. As a stat boy, I wish God would just come down and say something like "eighty percent" or whatever. I can think of about a handful of reasons why He wouldn't, but such speculation would also be useless. Personally, I don't like to speculate about how many people get to heaven, or whether such-and-such a scenario would lead to damnation or not. Last time I did that, it led to lots of fear/pulling out of my hair. I imagine my disposition would be different nowadays, but I don't really know what it would accomplish.

1) No matter how hard I try, I just won't find out. There is simply not enough evidence to draw any of the conclusions listed above with any real confidence. If nothing else, we just don't know what happens at the moment of death.
2) Even if I were to find out, it wouldn't help me on my own faith journey. It's like running a team cross country race. Don't worry so much about how your other teammates are doing. Knowing won't make you run faster. Just focus on your own race and help your team as much as you can. You'll find out at the end of the race.
3) It could re-ignite some of the scruples that I have been (successfully) fighting off for the last 3-4 years.

I will say this: There is a special place in heaven for all the cute PhatBabies.

[Deb]

Now I feel like I am going to go to hell because I voted. I did vote that all good people would go to heaven. Maybe I will only go halfway to hell.

[MissyP89]

It's hard to think about. Considering no one in my family practices the Faith anymore, and only three of my friends as well as my boyfriend are Christian, I don't like to think they're all hellbound.

I like to think that our Lord is merciful...

Edited December 10, 2007 by MissyP89

[prose]

I tend to lean towards more people being saved. (If I had to guess). But then I start wondering if maybe I am being deceived, and that waaaay less will be. Then I start wondering about non-Catholics and non-Christians... and what if they are good?

And then I start freaking out.

[Spamity Calamity]

I honestly don't know. I mean I want to say most people are going to heaven but there are so many that I know that have done bad things. Like messed up things and they never resolved any of it. Just let it go. Like my Uncle in Law. I dont know the details because I wasnt there but pieceing different stories together I think he passively euthanised his mother because he got tired of caring for her. And thats just the stuff they tell me about...imagine what they dont tell me. And alot of people never do anything to atone. They arent Catholic but they dont even say a simple "sorry" or try to make things right. I think that stuff piles up after awhile. But then I think yeah but does that mean that they are going to hell? Seems like everlasting torment is pretty harsh. And that is what Purgatory is for nobody said it would be nice and maybe people get their comeupins there and then move on. I don't know..I honestly don't know.

But that is one of the things that I like about Catholicism. It's got a really good system put in place for addressing sins and trying to take care of them right now on this earth.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='prose' post='1432455' date='Dec 10 2007, 12:16 PM']Which answer comes closest to your feelings on the matter. I know some overlap, I am just trying to see what people think.

You can choose more than one answer

I have heard all of these, so I want to know your opinions.

No politically correct stuff. I know what the Church teaches, I know we don't personally judge. I just want to see what people's understandings are of these teachings.[/quote]

1
4
7

though I think 7 could have some exceptions included, like 4. But I do think its far harder overall to get to heaven than many people realize and that probably far fewer people will be going to heaven than is expected.

[st-annes]

Someone said a lot of people's ideas of Hell come from Dante's [i]Inferno[/i], which is a fictional epic poem. It always amazes me how a lot of fundamentalists can get away with their rambling spiels about Hell when the vast majority of the demonic torture business is not even in the Bible.

[esmith818]

My vote was easy on the non-Catholics; hard on the Catholics.

I voted for all "good" people getting in along with the idea that everyone would have an opportunity at death to accept or reject Jesus. I have a hard time accepting that a merciful and just God would allow people to wind up in Hell simply because they were ignorant of the Truth.

However, I also voted for Catholics heading for hell if they die with unconfessed mortal sin. (I never did like that whole culpability deal.)

Maybe it's because I'm melancholy-choleric, but I keep thinking about Luke 12:42-48 which ends with the burdensome "much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more."

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

Wel...I would certainly like to believe that all will be in heaven and that the road to the Beutific Vision will be an easy one. However, the Scriptures do say that, "...the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it".

I certainly wouldn't presume anything about the state of other people's souls, with that said...I will continue to work out my salvation with fear and trembling for I do not believe that the road to Heaven is an easy one and that everyone (of most) will find it.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='st-annes' post='1432590' date='Dec 10 2007, 05:42 PM']Someone said a lot of people's ideas of Hell come from Dante's [i]Inferno[/i], which is a fictional epic poem. It always amazes me how a lot of fundamentalists can get away with their rambling spiels about Hell when the vast majority of the demonic torture business is not even in the Bible.[/quote]

sure but we need to be careful even here. Past popes have given quite a lot of credibility to Dante's work in this regard. I'm thinking of one encyclical in particular. will post it when I find it.

[goldenchild17]

IN PRAECLARA SUMMORUM (On Dante)
Pope Benedict XV
Encyclical or Pope Benedict XV promulgated on 30 April 1921.

To Professors and Students of Literature and Learning in the Catholic World.

Beloved Children, Health and the Apostolic Benediction.

1. Among the many celebrated geniuses of whom the Catholic faith can boast who have left undying fruits in literature and art especially, besides other fields of learning, and to whom civilization and religion are ever in debt, highest stands the name of Dante Alighieri, the sixth centenary of whose death will soon be recorded. Never perhaps has his supreme position been recognized as it is today. Not only Italy, justly proud of having given him birth, but all the civil nations are preparing with special committees of learned men to celebrate his memory that the whole world may pay honour to that noble figure, pride and glory of humanity.

2. And surely we cannot be absent from this universal consensus of good men; rather should We take the lead in it as the Church has special right to call Alighieri hers.

3. So, just as at the beginning of Our Pontificate by a Letter to the Archbishop of Ravenna We promoted the restoration of the temple where the ashes of the poet lie, so now, to initiate the cycle of the centenary celebrations, it has seemed most opportune to Us to speak to you all, beloved children, who cultivate letters under the maternal vigilance of the Church, to show even more clearly than before the intimate union of Dante with this Chair of Peter, and how the praises showered on that distinguished name necessarily redound in no small measure to the honour of the Catholic Church.

4. And first of all, inasmuch as the divine poet throughout his whole life professed in exemplary manner the Catholic religion, he would surely desire that this solemn commemoration should take place, as indeed will be the case, under the auspices of religion, and if it is carried out in San Francesco in Ravenna it should begin in San Giovanni in Florence to which his thoughts turned during the last years of his life with the desire of being crowned poet at the very font where he had received Baptism. Dante lived in an age which inherited the most glorious fruits of philosophical and theological teaching and thought, and handed them on to the succeeding ages with the imprint of the strict scholastic method. Amid the various currents of thought diffused then too among learned men Dante ranged himself as disciple of that Prince of the school so distinguished for angelic temper of intellect, Saint Thomas Aquinas. From him he gained nearly all his philosophical and theological knowledge, and while he did not neglect any branch of human learning, at the same time he drank deeply at the founts of Sacred Scripture and the Fathers. Thus he learned almost all that could be known in his time, and nourished specially by Christian knowledge, it was on that field of religion he drew when he set himself to treat in verse of things so vast and deep. So that while we admire the greatness and keenness of his genius, we have to recognize, too, the measure in which he drew inspiration from the Divine Faith by means of which he could beautify his immortal poems with all the lights of revealed truths as well as with the splendours of art. Indeed, his Commedia, which deservedly earned the title of Divina, while it uses various symbolic images and records the lives of mortals on earth, has for its true aim the glorification of the justice and providence of God who rules the world through time and all eternity and punishes and rewards the actions of individuals and human society. It is thus that, according to the Divine Revelation, in this poem shines out the majesty of God One and Three, the Redemption of the human race operated by the Word of God made Man, the supreme loving-kindness and charity of Mary, Virgin and Mother, Queen of Heaven, and lastly the glory on high of Angels, Saints and men; then the terrible contrast to this, the pains of the impious in Hell; then the middle world, so to speak, between Heaven and Hell, Purgatory, the Ladder of souls destined after expiation to supreme beatitude. It is indeed marvellous how he was able to weave into all three poems these three dogmas with truly wrought design. If the progress of science showed later that that conception of the world rested on no sure foundation, that the spheres imagined by our ancestors did not exist, that nature, the number and course of the planets and stars, are not indeed as they were then thought to be, still the fundamental principle remained that the universe, whatever be the order that sustains it in its parts, is the work of the creating and preserving sign of Omnipotent God, who moves and governs all, and whose glory risplende in una parte piu e meno altrove; and though this earth on which we live may not be the centre of the universe as at one time was thought, it was the scene of the original happiness of our first ancestors, witness of their unhappy fall, as too of the Redemption of mankind through the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ. Therefore the divine poet depicted the triple life of souls as he imagined it in a such way as to illuminate with the light of the true doctrine of the faith the condemnation of the impious, the purgation of the good spirits and the eternal happiness of the blessed before the final judgment.

5. But among the truths that shine out in the triple poem of Alighieri as in his other works We think that these things may serve as teaching for men of our times. That Christians should pay highest reverence to the Sacred Scripture and accept what it contains with perfect docility he proclaims when he says that "Though many are the writers of the Divine Word nevertheless there is but one Dictator, God, Who has deigned to show us His goodwill through the pens of many" (Mon. III, 4). Glorious expression of a great truth. Again, when he says that "The Old and the New Testament, prescribed for eternity, as the Prophet says, contain 'spiritual teachings transcending human reason,' given 'by the Holy Ghost who by means of the Prophets and sacred writings, through Jesus Christ coeternal Son of God and through His disciples revealed the supernatural truth necessary for us'" (Mon. III, 3, 16). And therefore regarding the life to come "It is assured by the true doctrine of Christ who is the Way, the Truth and the Life: the Way because by that way we advance without hindrance to the happiness of that immortality; the Truth because He is free from all error; the Light because He enlightens us in the darkness of ignorance of this world" (Conv. II, 9). And no less reverence he pays to "those venerable Great Councils the presence of Christ in which no one of the faithful doubts"; and great is his esteem for "writings of the Doctors, Augustine and the others, and if any one doubt that they were aided by the Holy Ghost either he has not seen their fruits or if he has seen he has not tasted" (Mon. III, 3).

6. No need to recall Alighieri's great reverence for the authority of the Catholic Church, the account in which he holds the power of the Roman Pontiff as the base of every law and institution of that Church. Hence the outspoken warning to Christians: You have the Old and the New Testament: the Pastor of the Church as Guide; Let that suffice for your salvation. He felt the troubles of the Church as his own, and while he deplored and condemned all rebellion against its Supreme Head he wrote as follows to the Italian Cardinals during the stay at Avignon: "To us who confess the same Father and Son, the same God and Man, the same Mother and Virgin; to us for whom and for whose salvation the message was given, after the triple Lovest thou Me? Feed My sacred sheepfold; to us, driven to mourn with Jeremias-but not over things to come but over things that are-for Rome-that Rome on which Christ, after all the old pomp and triumph, confirmed by word and work the empire of the world, and which Peter, too, and Paul the Apostle of the Nations consecrated with their very blood as Apostolic See-now widowed and desolate; to us it is as terrible grief to see this as to see the tragedy of heresy" (Epist. VIII). For him the Roman Church is The Most Holy Mother, Bride of Him Crucified and to Peter, infallible judge of revealed truths, is owing perfect submission in matters of faith and morals. Hence, however much he may hold that the dignity of the Emperor is derived immediately from God, still he asserts that this truth "must not be understood so strictly as to mean that the Roman Prince is not subject to the Roman Pontiff in anything, because this mortal happiness is subjected in certain measure to immortal happiness" (Mon. III, 16). Excellent and wise principle indeed which, if it were observed today as it ought to be, would bring to States abundant fruits of civil prosperity. But, it will be said, he inveighs with terrible bitterness against the Supreme Pontiffs of his times. True; but it was against those who differed from him in politics and he thought were on the side of those who had driven him from his country. One can feel for a man so beaten down by fortune, if with lacerated mind he breaks out sometimes into words of excessive blame, the more so that, to increase his feeling, false statements were being made by his political enemies ready, as always happens, to give an evil interpretation to everything. And indeed, since, through mortal infirmity, "by worldly dust even religious hearts must needs be soiled" (St. Leo M. S. IV de Quadrag), it cannot be denied that at that time there were matters on which the clergy might be reproved, and a mind as devoted to the Church as was that of Dante could not but feel disgust while we know, too, that reproof came also from men of conspicuous holiness. But, however he might inveigh, rightly or wrongly, against ecclesiastical personages, never did he fail in respect due to the Church and reverence for the "Supreme Keys"; and on the political side he laid down as rule for his views "the reverence which a good son should show towards his father, a dutiful son to his mother, to Christ, to the Church, to the Supreme Pastor, to all who profess the Christian religion, for the safeguarding of truth" (Mon. III, 3).

7. Thus, as he based the whole structure of his poem on these sound religious principles, no wonder that we find in it a treasure of Catholic teaching; not only, that is, essence of Christian philosophy and theology, but the compendium of the divine laws which should govern the constitution and administration of States; for Dante Alighieri was not a man to maintain, for the purpose of giving greater glory to country or pleasure to ruler, that the State may neglect justice and right which he knew well to be the main foundation of civil nations.

8. Wonderful, therefore, is the intellectual enjoyment that we gain from the study of the great poet, and no less the profit for the student making more perfect his artistic taste and more keen his zeal for virtue, as long as he keeps his mind free from prejudice and open to accept truth. Indeed, while there is no lack of great Catholic poets who combine the useful with the enjoyable, Dante has the singular merit that while he fascinates the reader with wonderful variety of pictures, with marvellously lifelike colouring, with supreme expression and thought, he draws him also to the love of Christian knowledge, and all know how he said openly that he composed his poem to bring to all "vital nourishment." And we know now too how, through God's grace, even in recent times, many who were far from, though not averse to Jesus Christ, and studied with affection the Divina Commedia, began by admiring the truths of the Catholic Faith and finished by throwing themselves with enthusiasm into the arms of the Church.

9. What We have said above suffices to show how opportune it is that on the occasion of this world centenary each should intensify his zeal for the preservation of that Faith shown by Dante pre-eminently as support of learning and the arts. For We admire in him not only supreme height of genius but also the immensity of the subject which holy religion put to his hand. If his genius was refined by meditation and long study of the great classics it was tempered even more gloriously, as We have said, by the writings of the Doctors and the Fathers which gave him the wings on which to rise to a higher atmosphere than that of restricted nature. And thus it comes that, though he is separated from us by centuries, he has still the freshness of a poet of our times: certainly more modern than some of those of recent days who have exhumed the Paganism banished forever by Christ's triumph on the Cross. There breathes in Alighieri the piety that we too feel; the Faith has the same meaning for us; it is covered with the same veil, "the truth given to us from on high, by which we are lifted so high." That is his great glory, to be the Christian poet, to have sung with Divine accents those Christian ideals which he so passionately loved in all the splendour of their beauty, feeling them intimately and making them his life. Such as dare to deny to Dante this award and reduce all the religious content of the Divina Commedia to a vague ideology without basis of truth fail to see the real characteristic of the poet, the foundation of all his other merits.

10. If then Dante owes so great part of his fame and greatness to the Catholic Faith, let that one example, to say nothing of others, suffice to show the falseness of the assertion that obedience of mind and heart to God is a hindrance to genius, whereas indeed it incites and elevates it. Let it show also the harm done to the cause of learning and civilization by such as desire to banish all idea of religion from public instruction. Deplorable indeed is the system prevalent today of educating young students as if God did not exist and without the least reference to the supernatural. In some places the "sacred poem" is not kept outside the schools, is indeed numbered among the books to be studied specially; but it does not bring to the young students that "vital nourishment" which it should do because through the principle of the "lay school" they are not disposed towards the truths of the Faith as they should be. Heaven grant that this may be the fruit of the Dante Centenary: that wherever literary instruction is given the great poet may be held in due honour and that he himself may be for the pupils the teacher of Christian doctrine, he whose one purpose in his poem was "to raise mortals from the state of misery," that is from the state of sin, "and lead them to the state of happiness," that is of divine grace (Epist. III, para. 15).

11. And you, beloved children, whose lot it is to promote learning under the magisterium of the Church, continue as you are doing to love and tend the noble poet whom We do not hesitate to call the most eloquent singer of the Christian idea. The more profit you draw from study of him the higher will be your culture, irradiated by the splendours of truth, and the stronger and more spontaneous your devotion to the Catholic Faith.

As pledge of celestial favours and witness of Our paternal benevolence we impart to you, beloved children, with all Our heart, the Apostolic benediction.

Given at Rome at St. Peter's, 30 April 1921, the seventh year of Our Pontificate.

[goldenchild17]

double post

Edited December 11, 2007 by goldenchild17