Food Cleanliness Before The Flood

[dustthouart]

It's been a long time since I posted here, but I use the directory all the time.

I'm currently discussing religion and ethics with a Seventh Day Adventist. I didn't know too much about them until we started talking.

One of their beliefs that fascinated me was their assertion that God still forbids us to eat unclean foods such as pork and shrimp. I had previously thought this view absolutely ridiculous and easily demolishable by St. Peter's vision in Acts, as well as St. Paul talking about people with weaker faith eating only vegetables, as well as the many places where we are told the Old Covenant is completed and a new one begun in Christ. My SDA friend then said that the distinction of clean and unclean animals did not originate with the Mosaic covenant, but was present before the flood, when Noah was instructed how many clean and unclean animals to bring. (Gen 7:2-3) Meat eating only happened after the flood (Gen 9:3), and therefore people ought to return to the purer vegetarian lifestyle.

I've been googling but I've not found anything regarding this Noah argument for vegetarianism and that some animals are essentially unclean (scavengers). My friend believes in the infallibility of the bible and a literal Genesis, btw.

Anyway I'm really excited about the dialogue I'm having with this guy because it was just these kind of discussions that brought me to the Catholic Church from nebulous nondenominationalism. I think the points I should really emphasize are the insufficiency of scripture without tradition, and the apostolic priesthood. But it also seems like I can't get away from these lifestyle questions. And then of course, the most prominent belief of the SDAs, that the Sabbath has not been transferred to Sunday.

I also think I should start discussing the history of the church and demolish the SDA claim that the Pope is the beast of Revelation.

[Justin86]

[quote name='dustthouart' post='1430672' date='Dec 7 2007, 06:29 PM']One of their beliefs that fascinated me was their assertion that God still forbids us to eat unclean foods such as pork and shrimp. I had previously thought this view absolutely ridiculous and easily demolishable by St. Peter's vision in Acts, as well as St. Paul talking about people with weaker faith eating only vegetables, as well as the many places where we are told the Old Covenant is completed and a new one begun in Christ. My SDA friend then said that the distinction of clean and unclean animals did not originate with the Mosaic covenant, but was present before the flood, when Noah was instructed how many clean and unclean animals to bring. (Gen 7:2-3) Meat eating only happened after the flood (Gen 9:3), and therefore people ought to return to the purer vegetarian lifestyle.[/quote]
I'm not getting it. Even if meat eating only started after the Deluge why go back to eating only vegetables?

[dustthouart]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1431072' date='Dec 8 2007, 01:39 AM']I'm not getting it. Even if meat eating only started after the Deluge why go back to eating only vegetables?[/quote]
The idea is that God designed us to eat vegetables only. In the unfallen world we all only ate plants. We ought to take care of our bodies like temples and follow God's original healthier design.

They also think that alcohol is forbidden. They claim that Jesus was really drinking grape juice, or alternately, that the wine was so watered down that it isn't like the wine we have now, and again, that to drink alcohol is an offense against the body.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='dustthouart' post='1431084' date='Dec 7 2007, 11:50 PM']The idea is that God designed us to eat vegetables only. In the unfallen world we all only ate plants. We ought to take care of our bodies like temples and follow God's original healthier design.[/quote]
Well that's just a biology issue. The appendix(?), which is relatively useless now, was designed for processing bacterias found in raw meat. Our front teeth are designed for cutting/tearing flesh. Etc. Etc. If God "designed" us to eat vegetables only, He kind of did a bad job. We're too similar to other omnivores.

And, that argument often comes from the line that says that there was "no death before the fall". Some, like 7th day adventists take that to mean Absolutely zero death. No humans, no animals. There are several ways to approach this. First of all, plants are life too. If there was truly no death before the fall, then no plants died either, and no one ate anything. If they're going to make an exception for plants, then why can't everyone else make an exception for animals too? Also, I don't know any Greek or Hebrew myself, but I highly suspect that "no death before the fall" meant no spiritual death, not no physical death. Spiritual death makes MUCH more sense.

[quote]They also think that alcohol is forbidden. They claim that Jesus was really drinking grape juice,[/quote]You could just point out that there is zero historical evidence to suggest either way. The word for "wine" could have easily meant either one.

[quote]alternately, that the wine was so watered down that it isn't like the wine we have now[/quote]You'd have to ask a historian to be sure, but my history prof and a few of my friends were very into the history of alcohol, and I'm pretty sure it was even stronger then than it is now. In the U.S. there are legal limits for the alcohol content of some drinks.
[quote]and again, that to drink alcohol is an offense against the body.[/quote]A line that, in my opinion, is VERY underused by Catholics is simply "Where is that in the bible?". A beer a day, or a glass of wine 5 days out of every week is actually beneficial to a person's health. In excess, yes, it is an offense against the body, but drinking too much water can kill you too.

I don't know a whole lot about the bible myself though, so you might want to hear what someone else has to say too.

[scardella]

[quote name='dustthouart' post='1430672' date='Dec 7 2007, 03:29 AM']My SDA friend then said that the distinction of clean and unclean animals did not originate with the Mosaic covenant, but was present before the flood, when Noah was instructed how many clean and unclean animals to bring. (Gen 7:2-3) Meat eating only happened after the flood (Gen 9:3), and therefore people ought to return to the purer vegetarian lifestyle.[/quote]

2 quick thoughts:
1. Cain and Abel - Gen 4 Abel was a keeper of flocks for work, ie he keeps the flocks to use them for food, and he sacrificed one of those animals to God. In Gen 3, we see that they are to work for food. It was Abel's sacrifice that God honored, so we know that Abel's work is not illicit. Furthermore, over and above that, God gave Adam and Eve LEATHER garments, which doesn't directly address EATING meat, but it certainly implies that animals can be killed for our good. BTW, I'm sure this argument could be structured much better...

2. Being given the animals in Gen 9:3 was part of a BLESSING, not a curse. This means it is good (and healthy) thing for Noah to eat animals.

[Theoketos]

Also, God gave Adam and Eve LEATHER garments to replace the leaves in Genesis 3:21 "For the man and his wife the LORD God made leather garments, with which he clothed them."

[scardella]

Sorta makes you think Adam and Eve looked like outlaw bikers, huh?

[Dismas]

Clean and unclean animals was not whether they ate meat or not. There is a wide range of characteristics, most of which do not revolve around the eating of meat.

First, clean animals include those that chew cud and have cloven hoofs: Cows, goats, etc. Unclean animals have only one of these characteristics: swine, rabbits, camels, etc.

Second, clean fish have both scales and fins. Unclean animals lack either or both of these charactersistics, so no catfish or lobster at a kosher table.

Third, a number of birds (winged creatures), particularly raptors, seabirds, ostriches and bats are unclean.

Fourth, all winged insects are unclean, with the exception of grasshoppers, locusts and crickets.

Fifth, all pawed creatures, such as cats, dogs, etc. are unclean.

Sixth, all crawling creatures, meaning vermin, reptiles, and such are unclean.

Seventh, all clean animals that die (not butchered alive) are unclean.

Now, while it is true all land carnivores are off the list, among a host of other creatures, that does not make the act of eating meat bad.

In this list, we first note that many on this list are known to eat feces or scavenge for filth. This is true for categories one and two, and partially applying to three, four, five and six.

Second, we notice that all carrion scavengers are also unclean. Of course, nearly all carnivores will scavenge.

Third, we notice that all vermin are unclean.

Fourth, we notice that carrion of clean animals is unclean.

Now I'll let others discuss what this all means.

[jeffpugh]

Dismas' list seems to revolve around one thing: health... I'm sure there are other things though...

Btw, in the debate table, there was a thread called "Jesus drank Grape Juice" and it had some basic refutations of that claim. The big one is that they had no way to stop the firmentation process. Ie, they didn't have refrigeration and machines to purify the juice like we have now.

[dustthouart]

He tried to pull the "health" card on me too. But I believe that to insist that cleanliness still applies is morally dangerous. The early Church fought hard against the Judaizers. Ritual cleanliness went far beyond health.

In Mark 7 Jesus declared all foods clean, and St. Peter's vision in Acts makes it clear: Christians are supposed to go amongst non-believers, and _eat_ with them.

As far as health goes, rabbits are herbivores and rabbit meat is very healthy. Beef and lamb can be just as dangerous as any other meat--mad cow disease anyone? For that matter, a green salad could give you e coli.

[Dismas]

[quote name='dustthouart' post='1433226' date='Dec 12 2007, 08:26 AM']He tried to pull the "health" card on me too. But I believe that to insist that cleanliness still applies is morally dangerous. The early Church fought hard against the Judaizers. Ritual cleanliness went far beyond health.

In Mark 7 Jesus declared all foods clean, and St. Peter's vision in Acts makes it clear: Christians are supposed to go amongst non-believers, and _eat_ with them.

As far as health goes, rabbits are herbivores and rabbit meat is very healthy. Beef and lamb can be just as dangerous as any other meat--mad cow disease anyone? For that matter, a green salad could give you e coli.[/quote]
The health benefits of kosher have diminished greatly since we moderns started focusing on hygiene and germs.

Observation of Rabbinic Law is not part of the New Covenant though Jesus. Even so, good luck in your apologetics, as I can't hold a straight face through SDA doctrine.