Husband-wife Domestic Confessional Model

[Aloysius]

I'm thinking in actual practice it would fall somewhere in between informal and formal, going back and forth on that type of spectrum.... maybe there would be certain days where you'd get together for something formal, while in everyday practice there'd just be something you'd say which would initiate a conversation which is supposed to be held to the standards of the confessional thing. maybe there'd be a place in the house set aside for these things... you know, if one spouse is feeling especially guilty about something, they go there to pray about it or whatever, and maybe call the other spouse to come.

now, I'd imagine it'd be a very rare occurence for one spouse to confess to the other " I committed adultery 4 times last week" or something ridiculous. it might be more plausible for one to say "I entertained a lustful thought for someone else"

but part of it is the idea that things revealed through this means cannot be trudged up in arguments or tallied or anything, each spouse would have to understand: the only reason they know about that thing is because the one spouse was truly sorry for it, and they'd have to thus take that forgiveness to heart.

[mom25angels]

I just had another thought while reading your last response. There could be a real possibility that some confessions made by a spouse may actually be more hurtful than helpful. Your example of lustful thoughts. As a spouse I wouldn't know that my husband was having lustful thoughts about someone unless he confessed it to me. I am sure that would be a very hurtful thing to here. I am not sure that it would be a necessary thing to hear either. Definetly something a spouse should take to the confessional but not necessarily to their spouse. I would recommend that prior to a spousal "confession" time the spouses should receive spiritual direction from a priest. It would be really awful to inflict pain on your spouse with the intention of doing good.....do you understand where I am going with this?


btw...I would also assume the infedelity situation refered to in the previous post would be a rare thing as well.

[Aloysius]

see... I don't know, personally I think people need to move away from a mindset that makes such a thing so hurtful. maybe I'm just an idealist.

I was watching Home Improvement one time, and they were having these troubles in their marriage... after umpteen years of marriage, there was this big deal about Jill actually finding another man attractive, and they had to work it out like some big problem.

to me, I found that absolutely ridiculous that they finally came to this conclusion after umpteen years of marriage when some guy hit on Jill (who happened to be a great granite guy, which only made it worse, lol). I think it should be made absolutely clear to both spouses from the start that they are human beings who will have attraction to other people other than their spouse. seems to me that it would only make for a stronger marriage if the two spouses understood this and knew about this and shared this fact. It should be re-affirming to the one spouse when the other confesses "I had lustful thoughts about someone (don't even have to mention the name so long as it was just thoughts)... so I came back to you to confess this to you, I am renewing my choice of YOU instead of that person" you know? to me, it'd be even more of a reinforcement of love, especially if the person was someone who my wife theoretically could have if she wanted to, because to me, if she came to me and said "I had lustful thoughts about Leonardo DiCaprio" it's like... wow, and you've chosen not to run off on me for him! halleluja! lol... but then if it's like "I had lustful thoughts about hunky John Q. OurFriend, who has always liked me"... I'd be like... wow, and you came and told this to me? that's love.

but I'm sure many who know me on here realize that I am an idealist, and you're all probably waiting for me to get crushed by reality (though as I have said, I intend to never give up on my ideals as a thing to be approximated, even if reality makes them difficult to actually realize)

[adt6247]

Interesting proposal. I have an overall negative view of this, but find the concept fascinating and wish to discuss from a more academic point of view. Here are my objections:
[list=1]
[*] With respect to child/parent confession, I believe this has the potential to lead to confusion on the role of sacramental confession, and the role of the priest, and the role of men in the priesthood (in the case that a child confesses to his mother).
[*] Married men and women do not have the same sacramental graces that a priest receives in Holy Orders, thus may have difficulty keeping the confessional seal.
[*] Withholding the nuptial embrace is contrary to the marriage debt.
[*] You appear to set this up as 100% coequal between husband and wife, yet the wife is to be obedient to the husband.[indent][list=a]
[*]Would this not lead to confusion re: gender roles between spouses?
[*]Would a husband be able to override a penance dealt from his wife via command?
[*]Is this arrangement not contrary to the spirit of what St. Paul proscribes in Ephesians 5?
[/list][/indent]
[/list]

[Aloysius]

1. I think, properly implemented, it has the potential to deepen a child's understanding of Sacramental confession. confessing to the mother or the father in the family would not necessarily lead to questioning an all male priesthood, as the child grows in age and ability to understand, the reasons for the all-male priesthood would be taught to them; before that, the child probably wouldn't come up with such a thought, it would just be how it is, they confess to mom and dad at home because that's where forgiveness from the parents come, to father in Church because that's where forgiveness from God comes; the priest is Christ to them in sacramental confession; the parents are the parents in domestic confession.

but it would lend the child towards a deep understanding of what confession in Church is. it would seem natural to him, ie: "if I must confess to my parents when I have done wrong so that I can be forgiven in the family, how much more ought I confess to God through His representatives in the Church!".

2. They do, however, have sacramental graces through the sacrament of matrimony which strengthen them in their marital bond; keeping the secrets of one's spouse is naturally part of the marriage bond anyway, this would simply be formalizing it. the breaking of this seal wouldn't result in divorce or something, it'd just be a very serious thing to be gotten through.

3. What I propose is that the husband and wife go into the marriage with the agreement that through this process, there will be times in which both agree to abstain from sex in order to make manifest a division in their union because of some wrongdoing, so that in making it manifest, they can see it more clearly while they attempt to work it out. It would be reserved for only very serious wrongdoings where the wrongdoer did not show contrition or a purpose to stop the wrongdoing... but based upon that initial agreement about the idea, it wouldn't be one withholding from the other, but both agreeing to abstain to manifest physically the division caused by this wrong. it's a pre-emptive agreement to abstain during these times. The same way in Church, someone in mortal sin is asked not to present themselves for communion; the person in this form of domestic "mortal" sin (the things being discussed here would take on a different degree here, the only thing defined in this "mortal" sin category in domestic confession would be a very serious sin relating directly to the relationship, so if it were some sin that was mortal according to the Church but was not a directive sin against the relationship, it wouldn't qualify for this) would not present himself to receive the marital debt at the same time the other spouse is not offering it; it would be agreement, which was decided from the beginning would happen if such a situation arose.

4. I would definitely consider an important distinction between the gender roles going so far as to suggest that there should be a different "formula" for when the husband confesses to his wife than when the wife confesses to her husband, and a different "formula" of the blessing the one gives the other when they forgive them.

As to the order to nullify a penance, I would probably disagree with that concept. When a wife asks a husband to do something, he doesn't submit in obedience, but complies in love; an important distinction of means, but the ends are the same, the spouse does what is requested. A wife would do what a husband asks of her in obedience to him, a husband would do what a wife requested of him because he loves her; so if a wife asks the husband to do x penance in order to restore what he has damaged in their relationship by his wrongdoing, the husband should do so.

I have always seen the husband's leadership role in the family in the same way as a man leads in a dance, and in a dance, the follower definitely effects the direction of the dance.

[mom25angels]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1429945' date='Dec 5 2007, 02:16 AM']see... I don't know, personally I think people need to move away from a mindset that makes such a thing so hurtful. maybe I'm just an idealist.

I was watching Home Improvement one time, and they were having these troubles in their marriage... after umpteen years of marriage, there was this big deal about Jill actually finding another man attractive, and they had to work it out like some big problem.

to me, I found that absolutely ridiculous that they finally came to this conclusion after umpteen years of marriage when some guy hit on Jill (who happened to be a great granite guy, which only made it worse, lol). I think it should be made absolutely clear to both spouses from the start that they are human beings who will have attraction to other people other than their spouse. seems to me that it would only make for a stronger marriage if the two spouses understood this and knew about this and shared this fact. It should be re-affirming to the one spouse when the other confesses "I had lustful thoughts about someone (don't even have to mention the name so long as it was just thoughts)... so I came back to you to confess this to you, I am renewing my choice of YOU instead of that person" you know? to me, it'd be even more of a reinforcement of love, especially if the person was someone who my wife theoretically could have if she wanted to, because to me, if she came to me and said "I had lustful thoughts about Leonardo DiCaprio" it's like... wow, and you've chosen not to run off on me for him! halleluja! lol... but then if it's like "I had lustful thoughts about hunky John Q. OurFriend, who has always liked me"... I'd be like... wow, and you came and told this to me? that's love.

but I'm sure many who know me on here realize that I am an idealist, and you're all probably waiting for me to get crushed by reality (though as I have said, I intend to never give up on my ideals as a thing to be approximated, even if reality makes them difficult to actually realize)[/quote]

Al,
I think idealist are wonderful gifts. Keep us focused on the high road.
I am a pragmatist.....it is very, very ingrained in me. I come from a very long line of pragmatic women. I always ask myself when confronted by an idea, how practical is this?
Although I "know" the ideal would be to see these confessions as for the greater good and not intended to hurt feelings, it would be very difficult to be as objective about them as your model would require. I think this an inherently feminine reaction. Emotions are not so easy for us to seperate from logic. Think of Eve....satan played on her emotions. But on the positive side think of the great gifts of these emotions....a mothers great love for her unborn child(well most women anyway) etc...
My point? I'm getting there....Although ideally this would be cool, to have a sort of formal time to apologize for transgressions against a spouse, in practicality when you are dealing with emotions it may not be so easy. Even if you could emotionally seperate yourself from the more hurtful confessions(And I am sure they would not all be hurtful although isn't that what sins are...hurting God and your neighbor?), you would always remember them. That is one of the beauties of sacramental Confession....even if the priest remembers your sins they don't directly affect him. He is not hurt by them(well, he is because our sins hurt all of our brothers and sisters, but you know what I mean). There are some transgressions it is just best not to share with your wife, imho.

[Aloysius]

There could certainly be a line drawn, varying from couple to couple, which allowed for some confessions to be made or withheld based on what was expedient to tell; though in an ideal marriage, an ideal which ought to be approximated as much as possible, everything could be shared.

Personally, when it comes to attraction/lustful thoughts about others, I think every healthy relationship should have already discussed that and come to an understanding that it will happen, and when it does it is not the end of the world; that the point is not that you're never attracted to anyone else, but that you always choose against anyone else and for your spouse. Any relationship which has not already discussed this is weak in this regard and will face a crisis when it eventually does happen (unless it is always kept super secret, in which case I question the healthiness of that, hiding the fact from your spouse that you feel attraction for someone else only sustains the possibility that you might want to start some clandestine affair with them in secret).

But I could see potentially there being one sin or another which shouldn't be told because the reaction of the spouse would just be too much, that the spouse's emotions would preclude their understanding, but I'd suggest that the couple always be working to make their relationship strong enough that they would both understand each other so well that nothing would need to be held back.

but also: think of the deterrent factor!... if some people find themselves not sinning because they don't want to have to tell the priest, imagine if they would have to explain it to their spouse! and someone with a well-informed strong conscience could very well find himself in that predicament, where he knows that as soon as he has committed the transgression he will be regretful and consider it necessary to confess it to his spouse, so he would have to not do it in the first place if he did not want to tell his spouse about it.

[mom25angels]

I do have to disagree with you that lustful thoughts will happen. It takes a conscience effort to entertain a lustful thought. You have to look at or see someone and think"That person is attractive" [i]then[/i] you have to entertain the lustful thought. I don't think that that should be something to exspect. Thinking someone is attractive is a natural thought. Choosing to think lustfully is not. If a spouse chooses to entertain the thoughts they are making an effort to do so. [i]That[/i] is what is hurtful....the choice to reject your spouse in order to willfully entertain the thought.

This hypothetical example is just one of the many ways we can sin against the spouse. So I don't want to beat it to death. I do want to point out that as we are growing in holiness together as a Christian couple there are things that can be more harmful than helpful....full and complete honesty can be very harsh. It is sometimes a very wise thing to know when not to admit to a pernicious thought or action to your spouse. That is what Sacramental confession is for. Perhaps if there is something that your spouse can aid you in overcoming than it could be shared but an idealistic across the board let it all hang out, I'm a sinner approach could actually be a sinful thing in that it could add more pain and suffering. KWIM?

The deterrrent factor was not something I thought of, though I'm not sure being afraid of being caught is the [i]ideal[/i] when it comes to the desire not to sin<wink>.

[photosynthesis]

all I can say is: I'm sure there's a good reason why this practice never developed organically in 2,000 years of Catholic tradition.