Circle_Master Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 1 Corinthians 15:12-34 12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. 20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? 30Why am I in danger every hour? 31 I protest, brothers, by my pride in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day! 32 What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." 33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals." 34 Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame. First of all, I am going to put forth that "this" in that bolded part's antecedant is "no knowledge of God" because it is the closest thing and it makes sense based on the context. And if this is so, then why is this to their shame? You can use any Catholic doctrine you wish, I've mostly curious as I've been meditating on this for the past few days and all of it's implications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Here Paul is using a quote from the Greek comedy Thais by the poet Menander- someone the Corinthians would know. In context he was teaching them that those who would spread the false doctrine that there is no resurrection are "bad company" and would corrupt the "good character" of those who hold to correct doctrine. "Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead" In other words, if Christ didn't rise, he's dead! Satans victory would be assured and what a foolish thing to baptize in the name of the dead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 ah it is our shame that more do not know God... for the Church is commissioned to baptize the whole world, if one person does not know good it is our shame. well, unless we present it to them and live it in example for them and they still reject it... oh and using Catholic doctrines... the Bible is a book of Catholic doctrine, just not everyone inerprets it the way the Church who produced it does anyway, i for one, am thouroughly ashamed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 in the phrase "i say this to your shame" i see the word "your" applying to two groups of people: 1. those who do not know God, or at least not as well as they ought 2. those who do know God, but do not ensure that others do as well. as Romans teaches, all are held accountable, even those w/o direct or formal instruction, b/c of the natural law that God has printed onto the hearts of all men. this natural law, then, brings shame upon group #1. also, i think that the important distinction w/ group #1 is the "why" behind their ignorance. if they do not know God b/c they are an indigenous tribe in the African jungle, separated from all civilization, then all they know about God--or at least our Christian God--is what has been passed down through the generations and what they are able to learn from God's creation. these people then would be "invincibly ignorant" as catholics understand the term. however, if you are a teenager in Anytown, USA w/ christian classmates and a church nearby, then u are responsible for learning about the God that is very much at ur disposal. if u do not, it is to your shame. on the other hand, if you are those christian classmates from that same Anytown, USA and u do not live ur faith, witness to it, or attempt to teach others about it, then i say that this is to your shame as well. afterall, "the great commission" calls us to share this gift of truth w/ all those who have ears to hear it. likewise, i recall a verse in the bible (i can't remember which one) that says that another man's sin is ours as well if we had the chance to correct that man in his error, and we did not. (i wish i could remember that verse......someone help me out.) at any rate, under the proper circumstances, both groups are put to shame--all b/c of the POWER of God's Truth and how VITAL this Truth is for our salvation. at least, that's how i see it..... pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted February 16, 2004 Author Share Posted February 16, 2004 in the phrase "i say this to your shame" i see the word "your" applying to two groups of people: 1. those who do not know God, or at least not as well as they ought 2. those who do know God, but do not ensure that others do as well. as Romans teaches, all are held accountable, even those w/o direct or formal instruction, b/c of the natural law that God has printed onto the hearts of all men. this natural law, then, brings shame upon group #1. also, i think that the important distinction w/ group #1 is the "why" behind their ignorance. if they do not know God b/c they are an indigenous tribe in the African jungle, separated from all civilization, then all they know about God--or at least our Christian God--is what has been passed down through the generations and what they are able to learn from God's creation. these people then would be "invincibly ignorant" as catholics understand the term. however, if you are a teenager in Anytown, USA w/ christian classmates and a church nearby, then u are responsible for learning about the God that is very much at ur disposal. if u do not, it is to your shame. However, we are called to bring the gospel to all nations. I would think the shame would be that all have not heard, not just those with availability. on the other hand, if you are those christian classmates from that same Anytown, USA and u do not live ur faith, witness to it, or attempt to teach others about it, then i say that this is to your shame as well. afterall, "the great commission" calls us to share this gift of truth w/ all those who have ears to hear it. likewise, i recall a verse in the bible (i can't remember which one) that says that another man's sin is ours as well if we had the chance to correct that man in his error, and we did not. (i wish i could remember that verse......someone help me out.) That is true, but is the shame part then that you didn't speak the gospel for in it is the power of salvation and they never are communicated fully what it is, and so thus they are not enlightened by God to the truth? Or is it just that you are commanded, and you didn't, so the focus is on you. I read that passage, and I personally feel Scripture teaches that invincible ignorance is total bull (sorry) and it is a real slap in the face that we are not possessed with a zeal for God's glory and spreading the news of Jesus Christ to the entire world to praise Him. If that knowledge is the power of salvation - which we have, and which it is - then it is indeed our shame that all do not know the truth of salvation. at any rate, under the proper circumstances, both groups are put to shame--all b/c of the POWER of God's Truth and how VITAL this Truth is for our salvation. at least, that's how i see it..... pax christi, phatcatholic I agree this Truth is VITAL completely, I would wonder if you would attempt to fervently emphasize worldwide missions then or would you consider them hands off so they aren't judged by a 'different standard'. I consider the glory of God necessary to all of them ASAP, and this verse, which indicates their salvation lies in the privilege we've been given to share the good news of Jesus Christ, says it is our responsibility that all do not hear, and do not have the knowledge of Jesus Christ. If the early church really understood it this way it is easy to see why they expanded so incredibly fast during the first century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 I think the shame applies to those who hear God's Word, know its true and still do nothing to accept it and preach and teach it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 i just don't see how u can hold people responsible for knowing about God who have NO OTHER WAY to know God besides the natural ability to discern right from wrong that is written on the hearts of all men. missionaries work as hard as they possibly can to bring the "Gospel" (however one defines the word) to such people, but the fact is that they will not reach everyone. so, what of the indian in a remote swamp somewhere who never makes contact w/ a christian missionary and is never provided the means w/ which to learn about our God? are you saying this man is condemned, even though his ignorance is of no fault of his own? i may need further clarification on ur stance regarding this issue. btw, its good to have u back Circle pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 I am only referring to people who have heard the gospel, nobody else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 I am only referring to people who have heard the gospel, nobody else. oh, sorry cmom, my last post was for Circle, not you. it appears you and i are in agreement :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted February 17, 2004 Author Share Posted February 17, 2004 i just don't see how u can hold people responsible for knowing about God who have NO OTHER WAY to know God besides the natural ability to discern right from wrong that is written on the hearts of all men. missionaries work as hard as they possibly can to bring the "Gospel" (however one defines the word) to such people, but the fact is that they will not reach everyone. aren't we all called to be missionaries? when was the last time you went down to the city corner and cried your heart out at every person that walked by? point taken? I speak this to your shame that all men in your town do not understand the gospel. so, what of the indian in a remote swamp somewhere who never makes contact w/ a christian missionary and is never provided the means w/ which to learn about our God? are you saying this man is condemned, even though his ignorance is of no fault of his own? If an indian in a remote swamp responds in faith to the general revelation God has given - such as the ethopian eunuch - God will provide the special revelation in some way. However, it is rather difficult to respond, and it is to our shame they do not have the special revelation of Jesus Christ that can bring them to salvation. We always have a choice and Romans 1 is clear that all men have seen the truth. Romans 1:18-20 : "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." To say otherwise is to put one's logic before Scripture, and the true issue is figuring out how God can be perfect with all men held to the same standard. John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." i may need further clarification on ur stance regarding this issue. btw, its good to have u back Circle pax christi, phatcatholic Hope that helps. Now back to Caravaggio the Painter and my Lit/Arts presentation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 We can know some things about God from what is planted in our hearts( the natural law), but some things can only be learned by divine revelat ion( revealed truth). If we have never heard the Gospel, God alone determines how people are "saved". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted February 18, 2004 Author Share Posted February 18, 2004 phatcatholic do you have a thought about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 aren't we all called to be missionaries? when was the last time you went down to the city corner and cried your heart out at every person that walked by? point taken? I speak this to your shame that all men in your town do not understand the gospel. If an indian in a remote swamp responds in faith to the general revelation God has given - such as the ethopian eunuch - God will provide the special revelation in some way. However, it is rather difficult to respond, and it is to our shame they do not have the special revelation of Jesus Christ that can bring them to salvation. We always have a choice and Romans 1 is clear that all men have seen the truth. Romans 1:18-20 : "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." To say otherwise is to put one's logic before Scripture, and the true issue is figuring out how God can be perfect with all men held to the same standard. John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Hope that helps. Now back to Caravaggio the Painter and my Lit/Arts presentation! yes, i apologize for not responding sooner. somewhat--but not nearly as much--like dUSt, i have had to prioritize my endeavors here. so this had to be temporarily placed on the back-burner. so, i'm glad that you posted a reminder now, on to ur responses to my last post. of course, i agree that we are all called to be missionaries. i don't believe i have said anything thus far to contradict that. however, i would contend that, despite the ways in which humanity is connected moreso than ever before, we are still a vast multitude spread all over this world. therefore, even if everyone witnesses to the best of their ability, there will STILL be those people who never hear the message of Christ. i think this is a realistic statement, but just in case u disagree, lets treat it as a hypothetical. what if a person dies w/o ever hearing the Christian message, and relying solely on the natural law? does that person instantly go to hell b/c he does not know what we know about God? i'm not talking about who is responsible for this, or who is to be shamed, i'm talking about this one person's salvation. you seem to be condemning such a person, so i want to make it clear what i pose to u and what your answer will be. my theory--basically the point i have been trying to make here--is that this person may go to hell, but then again he may not. i think we are in agreement regarding the "shame" part of the equation. everyone is at least partly to blame for this person's ignorance, b/c everyone has been called to spread Christianity. so, lets set this "shame" issue aside. that said, i contend that if this person follows the natural law in his heart, and believes and acts as he knows best, then heaven is his just as much as it is ours. but what do u say? pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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