Secular America

[Adeodatus]

Can anyone provide a link to the information about the ethicist trying to 'legalise' infanticide in England? There has been no debate on the news on TV here about it...and I watch the news every day! It'll never happen of course!

I did read about this in one of the papers a few days ago. Sorry to be so vague, but it was about an ethicist who was trying to draw out the logical conclusion on abortion. If you can abort a baby in the womb, you can 'abort' a baby outside the womb too. So he was arguing for legalising the infanticide of certain babies---handicapped ones, and those he deems to have a 'poor quality of life'. All chilling and horrific stuff, but some of it is already here.

I used to work for the NHS and I remember 2 cases in the 90s when doctors committed infanticide and were let off by the courts!!!! I fear there are worse things to come.... When I was still a doctor, one of my superiors was always trying to stop the nurses from accelerating death in certain patients. I had a chuckle on the day when he put everything down and shouted in the middle of the ward, "I will NOT commit euthanasia.....!!!!! Well, not until it's legalised!" Well, I did laugh, but that 2nd bit also sent a shiver down my spine.

Sorry, I don't want to hijack this debate either and turn it from secular America to secular Britain! But if anything Britain is certainly a very secular state, and that may or may not be a bad thing (you guys are debating that right now). What always strikes me about Americans is that they have little shyness in talking about God, their faith etc. But Britons in general get shy and embarrassed and 'it's just not done!' Or as Alistair Campbell (Tony Blair's longtime spin doctor) said, "We don't do religion!" The obvious response from us ought to be "Why not?"

What is bad is that there is still a strong anti-Catholic ethos in this nation (UK), and 'Catholic Church-bashing' seems to be the media's favourite past-time at the moment. And while I thank God for the House of Lords as a (limited) brake on what the House of Commons can get up to, the role of the Anglican bishops has diminished so much. If many of them can hardly stand up for orthodox Christianity in their own dioceses, can we expect them to do the same in Parliament?

[M.SIGGA]

If the states' morality isn't based on God, what should it be based on - the opinion of the voters, what is popular today?Do you think rights are something from God or the State?

Secular nations have replaced God with themselves. "Real God fearing" Christians stand out because there are so few of them. Europe can rightly be considered mission territory. (My apologys to Ellenita for listed England as secular in government, its more in practice).

Crimes rates are lower in places where you havedecriminalized crime, where drug use is openly tolerated, abortion comon, prostitution legal, and euthenasia becoming legal. They do have fewer guns.

America is certanly no prize, nor are most of her politicians.

again

How do you like our current society and what do you think its based on?

Where do you think its going?

What is your definition of freedom: democratic or religious?

Which is a better choice for the basis for society: do whatever you want until it hurts somebody else, or a morality based on natural and revealed law?

Is morality the result of the state or God?

Are your rights from God or the state?

Is it the states job to define morality or God?

Who is really in charge?

I never said morality isn't based on God; the fact that we use "God" so much in a godless society is wrong. The right of obedience or commit sin comes from God, so anything else I don't know what you are alluding towards - please fill me in. America is a Secular nation undercover and I think it would be more honest for this irreligious hypocritical society to either own up to it's concept of being the "New Jerusalem"that we were founded on or quit hiding behind meaningless religious language.

If anything I don't think our society is that different than how it was 50 years ago. I don't believe this society was ever really an overall Christian nation to begin with and if anything people are starting to be more honest with their true godlessness about feelings that American society has repressed for so long. The only true freedom I believe in is Salvation, and I think Christians need to quit living totally for this world and concentrate on the life to come. Thomas aKempis in "Meditation on Death" in Immitation of Christ says it best when he instructs the reader to "Live on Earth as a Pilgrim and Stranger, because you have not here a Lasting City."

I would prefer there to be a few good loyal othodox Catholic Christians and those striving to one than an army of secret Christ-haters that ruin the identity and image of Christ's Church. Christianity is a faith that flourishes with willing martyrs and orthodox believers in alien environments. Christianiy is fumbling here because Western Christians are more concerned with earthly comfort and our goverment feed this need with empty religious language. I don't agree with it because God loves all his children equally and blesses us differently - no one greater than anyone else - we are all important parts of the body.

I totally agree with abiding by Natural Law, so I don't understand what that question is about. I think one of the biggest failures of many people in the pro-life movement in America was that being pro-life became equated soley with the Church and Christian denominations specific teachings, and no regard was given that this is also crime against the universal Natural Law (mother's killing their offspring) - including euthanasia (brutal killing for a "good" death).

God is the author of morality and natural law. We shouldn't equate God with the godless actions of our secular society. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as the chosen people, the Jews were the only ones called to do this, and America is definitly not the land of the Chosen People and they should quit equating themselves with being the lucky chosen few. Besides the totally justified actions of the ancient Hebrew people, nationalizing "God" has almost always lead to catastrophies in past. It personally angers, sickens, and frightens me when President Bush refers to our actions is Iraq as a Crusade and that America has nothing to worry about because God is on our side after going against the opinion of the Holy Father.

[cmotherofpirl]

Has any of this helped you get ready for your topic?

[M.SIGGA]

lol actually what you posted actually did help me - I hope you don't ever get the notion I'm posting with any angry tone or anything because it's never like that. It's actually given me a greater understanding of different things I need to pray about more and annoy Fr. about for some more direction. I'm praying to overcome how opinionated I am and for the grace to be quiet and obey lol. I'm speaking sort of on the concept behind Communion and Liberation - intergrating orthodox Catholicism and Catholic Christian spirituality into every aspect of our culture (art, music, writing, vocation, etc.) to change it from the inside out. I'm going to touch on how the Church stands outside of political definition and worldly-ness and is our source of finding direction and truth. For symbolism I'm going to use compare a lightbulb (and smash it for shock and awe effect) and a candle to demonstrate why it's so important to share/spread our Light in Jesus Christ to the whole world - then we'll light up the darkness of the chapel. It's for Thursday afternoon, so I'm still praying about it and putting it together.

[Ellenita]

Adeodatus, thanks for your info on the ethicist debate.

I can understand the argument in terms of when does life begin and maybe the whole point of his logic was to shock people into realising that there is no difference between killing a baby in the womb or after the baby is born.

Undoubtedly euthanasia, and possibly infanticide is being committed in the UK - through the withholding of treatment, but neither of them are legal. Maybe by raising the issue the ethicist will create a public forum for hidden practice to be exposed, though it would be worrying if the debate went in favour of euthanasia as a result, and I suspect that there is some sympathy in the country for the practice generally.

I don't believe we value the life of a child in the UK or the US - even using terms like 'normal' and 'handicap' implies that we don't see each individual as distinct and unique but rather more make a value judgement on people based on what society values. We allow society to create 'status' and judge people according to that basis rather than seeing individuals as God intended, through His eyes. I pose the question to my students 'what is normal?' and so far it's never been answered!

I agree the UK is secular in the broadest sense of the word since Christianity and Christian ideals are increasingly seen as irrelevant within our society - and I hold the 'watering down' of doctrine by the anglican church in order to appease everyone partly responsible for this. However we could not be described as secular in the purest definition of the word since state and religion are still tied together.

There is of course a dilemma in wanting state and religion to be tied together. Although I may struggle with her teaching at times (remember I'm a new convert!), I have come to believe the Catholic church contains the Truth and therefore imagine the best society would be one based on her teaching. However presumably the Taliban felt the same way about their faith and I would not have wanted to live under their absolute rule! Does this mean secular society is the 'fairest' form of society? I can't resolve that in my mind either! Is a watered down version the best of both worlds then?

M.SIGGA, it sounds like it's going to be a great class! You will surely challenge them to think about what they believe.

[cmotherofpirl]

Ellenita I don't know the answer to the choice of society either. I just keep going back to this quote from my siggy:

"THe times are never so bad that a good man cannot live in them" St Thomas Moore

[Ellenita]

Cmom, that's a wonderful quote! It's also very humbling when you know the story of St Thomas Moore's life and the manner of his death.....

[littleflower+JMJ]

i love st. thomas more. i did a biography on him! and me and him have been tight since!! :D

and cmom............

you.are.amazing. :cool: