Secular America

[M.SIGGA]

I have to give a talk to my high school retreat kids next week on standing up to America's secular culture and transforming society through Christ; but I'm having a lot of problems comming up with how to convey this message because a part of me believes this is a totally free country and I really don't particularly care about other people's personal business - it's not really apathy, but I don't feel obliged to infringe on other people's rights after I've given my opinion. This is of course until an idea poses physical harm to society like abortion, unjust war, euthanasia, and the death penalty. I think I was picked for this topic because a few of the guys on the team really want me to this about this and change my opinion and I have been sort of defiant thus far. One of the points I was asked to touch on is the concept of homosexual marriage, and honestly I'm opposed to it but at the same time I don't really care about it because I don't think it personally effects me or the teachings of the Church. What I'm basically saying is that I don't think I'm totally opposed to the idea of a Secular State, and I'm a little worried about this because most American Christians are opposed to this. Is this point of view inconsistant with Catholic teaching?

[dramaqueen]

I was troubled by your response. : You are leading the youth and ideally teaching them to emulate Christ and live in His ways, yet you don't seem to have a clear direction to do so.

You are right.This is a free country but it is founded on Christian principles that have all but been forgotten, beaten down or forced out of every facet of our culture. There is such a seperation of Church and state that it seems like the state is the head and director of most American lives. That is why it is so important to model Christian behavior in your words and actions. The youth of today have to get it someplace and it is getting increasingly difficult to find guidence based on anything Biblical.

I felt compelled to respond, not to attack you (I apologize if I come off that way-it is not my intnet-I just feel strongly about this!), but to try to explain why it is so important to me that we (Christians, especially people in leadership positions) do take a stand on issues.

I am sure you have heard it said that a man who stands for nothing falls for anything. How will these young adults know right from wrong if we don't express a clear standard. Especially youth who want to live a Christian life, but for whatever reason do not have a strong foundation to do so? There are so many sources that are overzealous in their desire to share their personal opinions that in no way glorify Jesus and His message. It is important to voice a rebuttal to all of those secular messages that bombard these kids.

Although it sounded like apathy, it could be fear, or just an honest underestimation of the power you have.

You said:

I really don't particularly care about other people's personal business - it's not really apathy, but I don't feel obliged to infringe on other people's rights after I've given my opinion. This is of course until an idea poses physical harm to society like abortion, unjust war, euthanasia, and the death penalty.

I dare to go one further, anything that opposes God will eventually cause physical harm to the society. Just examine the Old Testament. Every time they abandoned the will of God their society crumbled. If we are not careful, the same decay can sneak into our youth and destroy us slowly.

One of the points I was asked to touch on is the concept of homosexual marriage, and honestly I'm opposed to it but at the same time I don't really care about it because I don't think it personally effects me or the teachings of the Church.

How can this not personally affect you? If homosexual marriage is validated as "just another option" than I believe that it is just a matter of time before marriage itsself could be declared useless. What is the purpose of marriage according to the Church? At least one purpose is procreation. How is that even possible in a same sex marriage? It isn't. They need to seek outside sources, and therefore, it affects others beyond their decision to marry. We introduce children into an unnatural situation. If God had been Ok with a lot of the things that are going on in our Society, He would have said so in the Bible teaching. Since He didn't, we have to be opposed to it. Not lukewarm. Remember whoever is not FOR ME is AGAINST ME.

God never intended a "Secular State" as a model for society. That is a manmade creation. It goes agains His Divine Plan and whenever we deviate from His Will, things go wrong.

So when you ask

Is this point of view inconsistant with Catholic teaching?

I would maintain that whether it is stated directly in doctrine or not, it goes against Biblical Ideals and how can that be acceptable as a follower of Jesus?

Please forgive me if I have come on too strong. As I said I am passionate about this. I teach Junior High Students and I see first had the effects of a "secular Society". In the past week-in one day alone-I had 10% of my class come to me with problems in the home that made it not only difficult to concentrate on their school work, but left them feeling alone, worthless and confused about their place in life.

Can you really tell me that a Secular Society can offer comfort to kids who don't even know what family is as laid out in the Bible? Can it offer a model of unconditional love that gives hope beyond understanding? Can a "to each his own" mentality create a feeling of stability and belonging to something larger than themselves?

Think about your own walk with the Lord and think about why you would keep it from someone who desperately wanted what you had, but never knew how to get it, simply because you "didn't want to impose your opinions" on them or it "didn't personally affect you".

Consider this...If you are a Christian it is your duty to be different and stand up for what you belive in. Not by shouting and coercing, but by living a life modeled after Christ. And to do that you must align your belief with those beliefs in the Bible and live them quietly but passionately. It is your obligation to tell why you belive it , not to force others to believe it. Everything you do plants a seed.

This was probably way more than you wanted, but thanks for letting me speak my peace.

:D

Good Luck and God Bless!

DQ

[cmotherofpirl]

Several different thoughts.

When we die we face a particular judgement before Jesus, and He will ask us what we have done:"whatever you do for the least of my bretheren".

At the general judgement at the end of time all souls will stand together and see the consequences of every action for good and evil, and how that action affected everyone else.

Everytime someone sins it has an effect on someone else. You might not see it but it is there. By choosing the self over God, one hardens one's heart, and makes it less available to everyone else. Personal sin can thus blind one to someones' needs. A whole society of blinded people cannot help anyone. Look at the consequences of the sin of Adam.

All societies are based on a common set of values. When the values change or disappear, society changes or disappears as well.

How do you like our current society and what do you think its based on?

Where do you think its going?

What is your definition of freedom: democratic or religious?

Which is a better choice for the basis for society: do whatever you want until it hurts somebody else, or a morality based on natural and revealed law?

Is morality the result of the state or God?

Are your rights from God or the state?

Is it the states job to define morality or God?

Who is really in charge?

Look at some secular states:

Germany - a cannibal gets 8 years for eating somebody. Not much of a crime.

France - trying to remove all religious symbols from society.

England - debating the killing of children after they are born.

Netherlands - legalized active euthanasia.

Sweden - increase of animal abuse because people are having sex with them.

Canada - no freedom of speech rights.

And you want to live in a secular society?

[Guest Jude]

Wow, transforming secular culture. That's a huge topic, and my response will probably seem feeble. Anyway here it goes.

I don't think America would be more Christian if it were a theocracy, but you're not doing any favors by making laws, or social structures that encourage barbaric practices such as euthanizing unwanted newborns, the sick, or the elderly. What is more relevant to highschool students though, is how best to witness Jesus Christ to people who don't know him. It would also be more effective than tyrranical religious laws for christianizing America.

How do you witness Jesus Christ? Well, here's where I run out of ideas. As a former atheist, all I can say is know the Gospel, and try to live by it no matter the cost. People see and understand what you do and say; you will get through to people that way. What literally never worked on me was the hard sales pitch some people have for their religion, Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses, for example.

The best witness of all is something I have no idea how you can do. This will probably sound crazy, but the light of God just seems to shine more brightly through some people. Not a literal light or anything, they just glow in the sense that a pregnant woman glows, but you can tell its because of their faith (probably by the way they act). When I had no faith I always envied theirs, and they provided the best witness. That's all I have to say, thanks for putting up with my rambling.

[M.SIGGA]

I was troubled by your response. :   You are leading the youth and ideally teaching them to emulate Christ and live in His ways, yet you don't seem to have a clear direction to do so.

You are right.This is a free country but it is founded on Christian principles that have all but been forgotten, beaten down or forced out of every facet of our culture. There is such a seperation of Church and state that it seems like the state is the head and director of most American lives. That is why it is so important to model Christian behavior in your words and actions. The youth of today have to get it someplace and it is getting increasingly difficult to find guidence based on anything Biblical.

I felt compelled to respond, not to attack you (I apologize if I come off that way-it is not my intnet-I just feel strongly about this!), but to try to explain why it is so important to me that we (Christians, especially people in leadership positions) do take a stand on issues.

I am sure you have heard it said that a man who stands for nothing falls for anything. How will these young adults know right from wrong if we don't express a clear standard. Especially youth who want to live a Christian life, but for whatever reason do not have a strong foundation to do so? There are so many sources that are overzealous in their desire to share their personal opinions that in no way glorify Jesus and His message. It is important to voice a rebuttal to all of those secular messages that bombard these kids.

Although it sounded like apathy, it could be fear, or just an honest underestimation of the power you have.

You said:

I dare to go one further, anything that opposes God will eventually cause physical harm to the society. Just examine the Old Testament. Every time they abandoned the will of God their society crumbled. If we are not careful, the same decay can sneak into our youth and destroy us slowly.

How can this not personally affect you? If homosexual marriage is validated as "just another option" than I believe that it is just a matter of time before marriage itsself could be declared useless. What is the purpose of marriage according to the Church? At least one purpose is procreation. How is that even possible in a same sex marriage? It isn't. They need to seek outside sources, and therefore, it affects others beyond their decision to marry. We introduce children into an unnatural situation. If God had been Ok with a lot of the things that are going on in our Society, He would have said so in the Bible teaching. Since He didn't, we have to be opposed to it. Not lukewarm. Remember whoever is not FOR ME is AGAINST ME.

God never intended a "Secular State" as a model for society. That is a manmade creation. It goes agains His Divine Plan and whenever we deviate from His Will, things go wrong.

So when you ask  I would maintain that whether it is stated directly in doctrine or not, it goes against Biblical Ideals and how can that be acceptable as a follower of Jesus?

Please forgive me if I have come on too strong. As I said I am passionate about this. I teach Junior High Students and I see first had the effects of a "secular Society". In the past week-in one day alone-I had 10% of my class come to me with problems in the home that made it not only difficult to concentrate on their school work, but left them feeling alone, worthless and confused about their place in life.

Can you really tell me that a Secular Society can offer comfort to kids who don't even know what family is as laid out in the Bible? Can it offer a model of unconditional love that gives hope beyond understanding? Can a "to each his own" mentality create a feeling of stability and belonging to something larger than themselves?

Think about your own walk with the Lord and think about why you would keep it from someone who desperately wanted what you had, but never knew how to get it, simply because you "didn't want to impose your opinions" on them or it "didn't personally affect you".

Consider this...If you are a Christian it is your duty to be different and stand up for what you belive in. Not by shouting and coercing, but by living a life modeled after Christ. And to do that you must align your belief with those beliefs in the Bible and live them quietly but passionately. It is your obligation to tell why you belive it , not to force others to believe it. Everything you do plants a seed.

This was probably way more than you wanted, but thanks for letting me speak my peace.

:D

Good Luck and God Bless!

DQ

Thanks for the reply and I would have gotten back sooner but I have had some major hell-fire drama this past weekend.

I think I didn't clarify myself enough in the original post; it more of the concept of a Republic and free democracy indirectly promoting religious laws without the Church, nothing about Christian individuals being silent about their faith or not evangelizing in word and works. As a ym I don't believe in presenting kids with anything but the absolute truth in what the faith teaches, so that's why I posed the question.

I'm not a citizen who views America as the "New Jerusalem" free from papal and other Old World religious tyranny like our Forefathers did, and I don't accept that America has some sort of divine blessing over other nations. The religious language used by our politicians angers me, and I don't see it as anything but hollow and hypocritical. By the fact we are a captitalist nation means that our state is not 100% on tract with Christianity - here there is always a winner and a loser where only the strong survive and the wise excell. Since we are not temporally ruled by the Church, I think a secularized legal system would simply be more honest, less lukewarm and hypocritical, and the responsibility of faith and holiness would be totally up to each individual. How does the Church see this point of view?

Isn't society "lukewarm" if they make laws based on a religious truth and don't totally follow through with it? How does one judge the level when believing something to a cetain degree is no longer hypocritical and therefore sinful? Since the Bible says the laws and nations of the world will become corrupt and turn on God and the Truth and Israel, why do American's believe they are somehow exempt from this? Shouldn't our focus be for the kingdom to come instead of this one?

Cmom, thanks and I'll respond to your post when I get home.

[M.SIGGA]

And DQ, Regarding Marriage, which is a Sacrament, I believe outside the Church there is no real sanctity of Marriage. The fact that 'marriage' is something you can do on National T.V. to a perfect stranger or at a Drive-Through Window in Nevada, and divorce in 24 hrs, has already destroyed respect for the Sacrament. Marriage is a Sacrament given by the Church, not from a mayor or judge or something you can do in Las Vegas dressed as Elvis. So anything outside the Christianity that masquerades as Marriage or calls itself Marriage, is not truly Marriage to me. Homosexuals who want to 'marry' isn't really Marriage - the term in itself is impossible because 2 men and 2 women can't 'marry' and become One, from both an anatomical and procreative position. They can call it whatever they want.

[PatrickRitaMichael]

i think the problem w/ having a completely secular society would be if it turned anti-religious, which is easy to do. look at france, their secular ideal is just making everyone except athiests mad b/c it steps on a lot of relgious freedoms to to keep things completely 'secular.'

but i understand sort of where you're coming from, though. i can only speak for myself, but usually when i feel like giving in, it's b/c i feel like no matter what the law says, people are going to sin and my little effort won't make a difference. but i'm a defeatist, so...

[Ellenita]

Look at some secular states: England debating the killing of children after they are born.

Cmom, what are you talking about?!

Incidently, England could not be defined as a secular state in the truest meaning of the word, since her constitution and law is completely tied up with the church of England. The bishops sit in the House of Lords and therefore have a direct impact on the law of the land since this is our 'second house' in Parliament through which all government bills have to pass and receive assent.

[morostheos]

*Just a quick note....The USA was founded on freedom among religions, not freedom from religion.

"Benjamin Huntington indicated during the House debate over the disestablishment and free excercise clauses of the First Amendment that 'he hoped the amendment would be made in such a way to secure the rights of conscience, and a free exercise of the rights of religion but not to patronize those who professed no relgion at all.'" - John Witte, Jr., Religion and the American Constitutional Experiment: Essential Rights and Liberties

[PatrickRitaMichael]

Cmom, what are you talking about?!

the leading ethicist in england has recently been trying to get infanticide to be legal or something b/c he said there was no moral distinction between an unborn child and a child and if abortion is legal, then infanticide should be, as well. (he wasn't trying to argue against abortion, either, just that infanticide is ethically permissible).

[morostheos]

I don't think Ellenita was disputing the fact that England was trying to legalize infantcide, but the statement that England was a secular state, which it is definitely not. They don't have separation of church and state there.

[Ellenita]

Can anyone provide a link to the information about the ethicist trying to 'legalise' infanticide in England? There has been no debate on the news on TV here about it...and I watch the news every day! It'll never happen of course! I might argue that we don't value children's lives very much (as I would argue very few countries in the world do), however I can hardly see us agreeing to allow such a thing under our law since we do not even allow the death penalty for convicted murderers and our law against euthanasia was recently upheld when it was challenged in the European court. We still have reasonably strong laws concerning reproductive technologies and the use of cloning - though personally I find this field of 'science' very disturbing and open to abuse and would like to see much tougher laws.

The law on abortion is currently being debated in the UK and I wonder if the issue of infanticide has been raised as a result of this. The circumstances under which a woman can have an abortion on the NHS are quite prescriptive and the argument currently surrounds what defines a 'disability' within the law sufficiently serious to allow an abortion to go ahead - this has arisen out of a case where a woman requested an abortion on the basis that the baby would have a clef palate.

[Ellenita]

M.SIGGA, apologies! :D I'm not trying to hijack your thread about secular America! ;)

[M.SIGGA]

Several different thoughts.

When we die we face a particular judgement before Jesus, and He will ask us what we have done:"whatever you do for the least of my bretheren".

At the general judgement at the end of time all souls will stand together and see the consequences of every action for good and evil, and how that action affected everyone else.

Everytime someone sins it has an effect on someone else. You might not see it but it is there. By choosing the self over God, one hardens one's heart, and makes it less available to everyone else. Personal sin can thus blind one to someones' needs. A whole society of blinded people cannot help anyone. Look at the consequences of the sin of Adam.

All societies are based on a common set of values. When the values change or disappear, society changes or disappears as well.

How do you like our current society and what do you think its based on?

Where do you think its going?

What is your definition of freedom: democratic or religious?

Which is a better choice for the basis for society: do whatever you want until it hurts somebody else, or a morality based on natural and revealed law?

Is morality the result of the state or God?

Are your rights from God or the state?

Is it the states job to define morality or God?

Who is really in charge?

Look at some secular states:

Germany - a cannibal gets 8 years for eating somebody. Not much of a crime.

France - trying to remove all religious symbols from society.

England - debating the killing of children after they are born.

Netherlands - legalized active euthanasia.

Sweden - increase of animal abuse because people are having sex with them.

Canada - no freedom of speech rights.

And you want to live in a secular society?

I think you read me wrong Cmom, I said the State should opperate from a Non-religious standpoint, if anything allowing voters to decide issues and not making blanket statements about Faith and God. I consider it using God's name in vain when politicians reference him in political speeches for the benefit of votes and self glorification. This is not a Christian nation, and I don't think America is any worse off than it's ever been. Now it seems that stuff which was "swept under the rug" for so many generations is now out in the open and we are having to deal with it's ugly face.

I don't get what you are talking about with the after-death judgement thing? -please clarify. How is the situation in Europe any better in America, where a drug convict recieves a mandatory sentence of 20 years, no parole while a rapist, sex-offender, or murder gets off after 7 years. Those'secular' nations also have little to no murder/violent crime rates - their societies are actually safer to live in, the poor and elderly don't starve, and everyone is employed with full benefits. They have a high standard of living, and they actually live longer too. Plus real God-fearing Christians stand out. How do you judge one against the other? Our culture reflects exactly how much Americans really care about morality behind their facade of National Day of Prayer and other National religious 'going through the motions' actions that don't bear any fruits. We still have legalized abortion. We still have an unfair and corrupt Criminal Justice System, and the highest domestic violence and murder rates in the entire world, yet our President won't make a statement without mentioning how God blesses America. Our government should just be more honest with itself.

[cmotherofpirl]

If the states' morality isn't based on God, what should it be based on - the opinion of the voters, what is popular today?Do you think rights are something from God or the State?

Secular nations have replaced God with themselves. "Real God fearing" Christians stand out because there are so few of them. Europe can rightly be considered mission territory. (My apologys to Ellenita for listed England as secular in government, its more in practice).

Crimes rates are lower in places where you havedecriminalized crime, where drug use is openly tolerated, abortion comon, prostitution legal, and euthenasia becoming legal. They do have fewer guns.

America is certanly no prize, nor are most of her politicians.

again

How do you like our current society and what do you think its based on?

Where do you think its going?

What is your definition of freedom: democratic or religious?

Which is a better choice for the basis for society: do whatever you want until it hurts somebody else, or a morality based on natural and revealed law?

Is morality the result of the state or God?

Are your rights from God or the state?

Is it the states job to define morality or God?

Who is really in charge?