What Is A Conservative?

[Lena]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1426512' date='Nov 28 2007, 08:55 PM']Ignorance is not bliss, get educated.
Conservative means to keep status quo. Then there is "right wing", someone who obeys the law, is for justice, is open minded, and believes that in most cases there is a clear line between right and wrong. There is no such thing as a "right wing extremist", the minute someone breaks the law, then they go left.

Liberal means to change. Then there is "left wing", someone who believes right and wrong is basically realtive, that they should be able to do whatever they want whenever they want without regard to others. They are the type to base their logic on unanswered questions and assumptions. Typically they see religion as a superstition and look at other people who know that there is a God with haughty eyes. Those who scoff at religion and attack seem more mad at God than disbelief and they "get back at God" by claiming disbelief. Many leftists believe themselves to be open minded because they don't form an opinion... which is just stupidity to avoid forming an opinion. To be open minded is to be open to arguements from all sides and making an educated opinion on the matter. To be open to an argument anytime in one's life and actually research new arguments that contradict our held positions is what open minded is... not blindly accepted everything argued.[/quote]

But if liberals have created laws or established laws such as legal abortion, then how are liberals breaking the laws if that's the established law? I'm a little confused by your definitions. Anyway, if someone is breaking the law I don't see how that is being influenced by their politics.

[Socrates]

[quote name='XIX' post='1425841' date='Nov 27 2007, 07:00 PM']There seems to be a few people on here who are die-hard conservatives--that is, they always take the conservative side of a given debatable issue. Furthermore, they proudly consider themselves conservatives. I'm trying to get my head around this, so my question is this: what is a conservative, and what does a conservative believe in?

Is a conservative simply someone who believes in small government? Someone who thinks that we should not change much? Something else? In other words, when you talk about conservatives, what do you mean by the term "conservative?"[/quote]
In a nutshell, I would describe a conservative as one who believes in traditional moral/social/religious principles, who respects tradition and favors gradual change over radical revolution, who believes in limited government and (in America) keeping true to the original intent of the Constitution, who rejects utopianism and socialist collectivism, and supports property rights of the individual.

Of course there is no one universally agreed upon definition of conservatism, and there are different varying schools of conservatism.
Simply seeking small government is in itself libertarianism, rather than conservatism. Libertarians believe in extremely limited decentralized government. Conservatives also believe in limited government, and there is quite a bit of overlap between conservatism and libertarianism.
However, conservatives tend to believe more in preserving tradtional morality and social mores, while libertarians tend to say government should completely butt out of moral matters altogether, and tend to favor "legalized everything."

I think true conservatism is defined best by the late political philosopher Russell Kirk, one of the intellectual "founding fathers"of the modern American conservative movement.

Kirk wrote these [url="http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/thought.html"]Ten Conservative Principles[/url]:
First, the conservative believes that there exists an [url="http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html#one"]enduring moral order[/url].
Second, the conservative adheres to [url="http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html#two"]custom, convention, and continuity[/url].
Third, conservatives believe in what may be called the [url="http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html#three"]principle of prescription[/url].
Fourth, conservatives are guided by their [url="http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html#four"]principle of prudence[/url].
Fifth, conservatives pay attention to the [url="http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html#five"]principle of variety[/url].
Sixth, conservatives are chastened by their [url="http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html#six"]principle of imperfectability[/url].
Seventh, conservatives are persuaded that [url="http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html#seven"]freedom and property are closely linked[/url].
Eighth, conservatives uphold [url="http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html#eight"]voluntary community, quite as they oppose involuntary collectivism[/url].
Ninth, the conservative perceives the need for [url="http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html#nine"]prudent restraints upon power and upon human passions[/url].
Tenth, the thinking conservative understands that [url="http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html#ten"]permanence and change must be recognized and reconciled [/url]in a vigorous society.

Click on the links to see what Dr. Kirk meant by each principle. [url="http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html"]Full essay here[/url].

Russell Kirk is intellectual reading, and doesn't make for snappy sound-bites, but if you want a good in-depth understanding of the conservative philosophy, I'd highly recommend reading his works.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='S][N' post='1426101' date='Nov 28 2007, 01:44 AM']
Conservative = Religiously extreme, Pro-Capitalist, Pro-poverity (IE: Maintaining and increasing the gap between Rich and Poor), extreme right-wing on moral issues to the point of ignoring other peoples thoughts and beliefs, trying to subject them against their will and rights as a free-thinking human being to a form of religious morality they don't hold.

Add more when it comes to mind.[/quote]
Liberal = Atheisticly extreme, Pro-Communist, Pro-poverty (IE: Maintaining and increasing a government-dependent welfare-class), extreme left-wing on moral issues to the point of ignoring the most basic moral principles, trying to subject believers against their will and rights as a religious human beings to a form of radical secularist politically-correct immorality they don't hold.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Socrates

[S][N]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1426367' date='Nov 28 2007, 02:55 PM']Put down the Ann Coulter and pick up the Russell Kirk or the Edmund Burke! You have been mainlining WorldNetDaily, but it's not too late Get outside your comfort zone and read some serious conservative political philosophy. By "serious" I mean it comes in a hardcover book with a jacket that doesn't have a huge American flag and the face of a bomb-throwing pundit on it. Too often people judge politics by the Michael Moores and the Sean Hannitys.

I don't think anyone on the face of the earth has ever been pro-poverty. "Mmm, poverty, that's a great thing, we need more of that!" Do you really think conservative politicians get up every day and think, "How can I maintain and increase the gap between the rich and the poor? I must work hard on that today! EVIL LAUGH!"

I think the word you are maybe looking for is indifferent. "Indifferent to poverty." It's not a good thing, it's wrong and very bad, but it's not eeeeeevil.[/quote]

I have and do. That is what a conservative is to me. Rich > Poor. Money > Human Rights.

That is a conservative to me. Nuff Said.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Lena' post='1426525' date='Nov 28 2007, 10:19 PM']But if liberals have created laws or established laws such as legal abortion, then how are liberals breaking the laws if that's the established law? I'm a little confused by your definitions. Anyway, if someone is breaking the law I don't see how that is being influenced by their politics.[/quote]


Our political beliefs are governed by the way we think and our priorities in life... not the other way around.

Right/Left are mindsets. Conservative does not mean right.... Liberal does not mean left.... and vica versa... The words are not synonymous as some believe.

Leftist haven't created laws, they used the judicial system and use a twisting of words to get "legal" abortion in place. Lawful and human laws are not exactly equal. True lawfulness resides in justice, abortion is the furthest man can get from justice as it is the greatest injustice one can do... to kill the totally innocent. Human laws are an attempt at setting order, if that order set forth by human law is an order of injustice, the laws are not lawful.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Spamity Calamity]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1426559' date='Nov 28 2007, 10:03 PM']Liberal = Atheisticly extreme, Pro-Communist, Pro-poverty (IE: Maintaining and increasing a government-dependent welfare-class), extreme left-wing on moral issues to the point of ignoring the most basic moral principles, trying to subject believers against their will and rights as a religious human beings to a form of radical secularist politically-correct immorality they don't hold. [/quote]

Bwa ha ha that is hilarious.

[Spamity Calamity]

Ok time to be serious. I can’t talk in large blocks of text like these others can but if I had to boil down what I think it means to be a conservative is this:

[size=4]The rights of the individual trumps everything else.[/size]

This is why I’m against abortion (because it violates the rights of the unborn individual).

This is why I’m pro second amendment (because I have the right to defend myself from criminals and the government).

This is why I believe in limited government (because the government’s sole purpose should be to protect the rights of the individual and we don’t need such a big government to do that.)

That is why I am against the government dictating how I should live my life. It is my right to decide how I should live and if that means screwing up my life or hurting myself that is my right ( I don’t need the government to protect me from myself, I know whats best for me).

That is why I reject the notion that the government can enforce morality and it is up the responsibility of the individual. Religion plays an important part here

That is why I believe the only way to get ahead in life requires that the individual has to work hard and succeed on their own merits.

These are just a few things that to me are what it means to be a conservative. That was the whole point of our constitution. It says that the individual has guaranteed god given rights and it forces the government to recognize and respect them.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Spamity Calamity

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Political terms like conservative and liberal are difficult to define because they evolve over time and mean different things in different countries. Conservatism in Britain is not the mirror image of conservatism in America, for example - not because Britain is a left-leaning country, as was suggested in another thread, but because as a nation it has had to face different social issues from those that predominate in the US. Any definition has to be fluid enough to take these two things into account.

I do not see liberalism and conservatism as polar opposites - that artificial dichotomy has been created by people who specifically define their political stances [i]in opposition[/i] to other viewpoints. Some people will use the supposedly negative traits of conservatism (or, more frequently, of particular conservatives) as a way of justifying their own liberal politics - and [i]vice versa[/i]. Not enough effort is made to define conservatism without using a cariacature of liberalism as a whipping-boy.

In reality, overlaps between the two political philosophies do exist. That much is undeniable. If I were to try to pinpoint myself on the American political map, I would have great difficulty with it. To take the pro-life movement as an example, I oppose abortion. (That gets me a tick in the conservative box.) I oppose the death penalty. (This is where I get accused of being a bleeding-heart liberal.) The categories are meaningless as soon as we start treating them like this, and this is how they invariably get treated.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Spamity Calamity' post='1426715' date='Nov 29 2007, 03:35 PM']Ok time to be serious. I can’t talk in large blocks of text like these others can but if I had to boil down what I think it means to be a conservative is this:

[size=4]The rights of the individual trumps everything else.[/size]

This is why I’m against abortion (because it violates the rights of the unborn individual).

That is why I believe the only way to get ahead in life requires that the individual has to work hard and succeed on their own merits.[/quote]

These points appear to contradict each other. An unborn child is incapable of defending itself, so we go out of our way to defend it - and rightly so. It can't save itself 'on its own merits'. What, then, are we to make of people who may not be facing murder but whose quality of life is severely hampered by long-term illness, disability, or poverty? These things can affect the individual's access to education and to employment, often profoundly, and without support (which they may not be able to afford) they will fall down. The unborn child may be the picture of helpless innocence, but helplessness exists beyond the womb as well. I don't think that the particular strain of conservatism that you're advocating takes this into account.

[Mercy me]

Conservative has less to do with government than it does in the belief in people to succeed on their own when given their opportunity. That opportunity does not come from government. Government gets in the way.

Also, success is often the result of many attempts and failures. It is how we learn and how we grow. Liberals don't believe in failure. There is not a person alive that hasn't learned from their failures. those lessons are not the most fun but they are often the most valuable.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Dismas' post='1426494' date='Nov 28 2007, 09:05 PM']The first dimension is often called "classical liberalism". Yes, it sounds odd, yet the term "liberal" was not synonymous with "leftist" or "progressive" up until modern times. Classical liberalism contends that laissez-faire capitalism is the most efficient, most productive, and most beneficial economic system extant. Well known advocates of classical liberalism are Dr. Milton Friedman, Dr. Thomas Sowell, and the Heritage Foundation. Much to the confusion of leftists, classical liberals view socialism and fascism to be virtually the same, and to be avoided at all costs.[/quote]
What you've described is [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism"]neo-liberalism[/url]. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism"]Classical liberalism[/url] is a direct output of Enlightenment thinking with its emphasis on human reason the belief that humankind is capable of improving itself. From an American perspective, the ultimate expression of classical liberalism is the Declaration of Independence, which declared that the rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" were "inalienable." While "happiness" replaced "property" from an earlier draft of the Declaration, the focus of classical liberalism is primarily individual liberties such as those set out in the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights"]US Bill of Rights[/url].

[Socrates]

[quote name='Spamity Calamity' post='1426715' date='Nov 29 2007, 10:35 AM']Ok time to be serious. I can’t talk in large blocks of text like these others can but if I had to boil down what I think it means to be a conservative is this:

[size=4]The rights of the individual trumps everything else.[/size]

This is why I’m against abortion (because it violates the rights of the unborn individual).

This is why I’m pro second amendment (because I have the right to defend myself from criminals and the government).

This is why I believe in limited government (because the government’s sole purpose should be to protect the rights of the individual and we don’t need such a big government to do that.)

That is why I am against the government dictating how I should live my life. It is my right to decide how I should live and if that means screwing up my life or hurting myself that is my right ( I don’t need the government to protect me from myself, I know whats best for me).

That is why I reject the notion that the government can enforce morality and it is up the responsibility of the individual. Religion plays an important part here

That is why I believe the only way to get ahead in life requires that the individual has to work hard and succeed on their own merits.

These are just a few things that to me are what it means to be a conservative. That was the whole point of our constitution. It says that the individual has guaranteed god given rights and it forces the government to recognize and respect them.[/quote]
Individual rights may be important, but they are not the be-all and end-all that trumps everything else.
Liberals too would say that individual rights trump all else, such as a "woman's right to choose abortion," the "right" to publicly engage in obscene behavior or display pornagraphy, or the "right" not to be offended by a storefront creche display. Of course, most of these so-called "rights" are bogus, and many situations beg the question of where one person's rights end and another's begins.
This is where moral law comes into play.

The key is that the government must be beholden to the moral law, not the other way around.

This said, the government must never take away the legitimite rights of citizens, such as the right to private poverty, the right to freely practice one's religion and raise his family as he sees fit, and the right to bear arms and to self-defense.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1426727' date='Nov 29 2007, 12:02 PM']These points appear to contradict each other. An unborn child is incapable of defending itself, so we go out of our way to defend it - and rightly so. It can't save itself 'on its own merits'. What, then, are we to make of people who may not be facing murder but whose quality of life is severely hampered by long-term illness, disability, or poverty? These things can affect the individual's access to education and to employment, often profoundly, and without support (which they may not be able to afford) they will fall down. The unborn child may be the picture of helpless innocence, but helplessness exists beyond the womb as well. I don't think that the particular strain of conservatism that you're advocating takes this into account.[/quote]
The problem is that much of contemporary socialistic liberalism treats able-bodied adults like helpless babies. There is, of course, nothing wrong with treating a helpless baby like a helpless baby.

[XIX]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1427056' date='Nov 29 2007, 11:35 PM']The problem is that much of contemporary socialistic liberalism treats able-bodied adults like helpless babies. There is, of course, nothing wrong with treating a helpless baby like a helpless baby.[/quote]
*chortle*

[Spamity Calamity]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1426727' date='Nov 29 2007, 11:02 AM']These points appear to contradict each other. An unborn child is incapable of defending itself, so we go out of our way to defend it - and rightly so. It can't save itself 'on its own merits'. What, then, are we to make of people who may not be facing murder but whose quality of life is severely hampered by long-term illness, disability, or poverty? These things can affect the individual's access to education and to employment, often profoundly, and without support (which they may not be able to afford) they will fall down. The unborn child may be the picture of helpless innocence, but helplessness exists beyond the womb as well. I don't think that the particular strain of conservatism that you're advocating takes this into account.[/quote]

Naw I dont think they contradict each other really. I believe in across the board government support for the unborn. I believe in total government support for people that are genuinely disabled/mentally ill . I would also include orphans till they are 18. Im talking housing, food, bills everything. I dont mind my taxes going to people who honestly cannot support themselves at all. Poverty is another issue. An able bodied person can get themselves out of poverty if they want to. If you are able bodied and you are poor it is your fault and there should be no government help, none, nada zip. In my world alot of people that are currently on welfare would not receive it while at the same time there would be more state paid mental institutions and orphanages and homes for the genuinely disabled.