Grace, Sanctification, Works?

[Paddington]

Just to nit-pick....

1. Calvinists are great at believing in grace as the cause of faith. They deny free-will in the way that matters here. That's the farthest you can take the idea of grace as a gift, in the way that you know what I mean.

2. Protestants kinda/sorta do believe in Purgatory, in that they believe it will be terrifying at the Judgement Seat of Christ before they are given the "be ecstatic for eternity" command. Is that the same belief as Catholics? It can be close (don't ask me how close) if they actively think about it, considering that many Catholics minimize insights about Purgatory.

3. Protestantism isn't historically bound to the idea of knowing for sure that you are one of the elect or that you can't fall from grace. That is more on the new side.

4. New Life in Christ - even with Sacraments - can work with Sola Fide.
"Jesus, I trust you to give me Heaven and not Hell and I'll probably go to Church a lot and maybe I won't be a lazy, drunken liar so much and I'll pray for money and health in Your Name" is considered a conversion to anti-nomianism by most Protestant doctrine.

[Briguy]

Hey Gerald, that wasn't much of a debate. I thought this was a debate thread? Ha Ha
Hope all is well with you!! - been a long time!

When I see how complicated people want to make grace I wonder if Jesus was sitting down teaching us if he would go into a long theology or if He would make it simple for us to understand. I think He would approach Grace in a very simple way. Grace is not complicated. When Adam sinned that could have been it. The earth, universe, and mankind doomed forever but that was not the case. God chose for himself a people, Isreal. God has always been the one to do the choosing when it comes to those who are "saved" (just using a term that most understand). Grace is this: that even though all of mankind is imperfect, God, who is total perfection, saved some from their sure destruction. Works and grace? Knowing that I am one of the elect of God, humbles me daily. It humbles me to my knees, and humbles me to good works. The Good Works that he has ordained for me to do(as scripture says) The person that understands the fact that they have been covered with the very righteousness of Christ, will seek to "work" for God.

Well, I'll stop there and let you pound on me for awhile (ha ha)

Take Care, In Christ,

Brian

[Justin86]

[quote name='st-annes' post='1426904' date='Nov 30 2007, 10:06 AM']It seems to me that a lot of evangelicals today are indeed grossly oversimplifying the issue. To hear them talk, it sounds like all you have to do is take a few seconds to say 'the prayer of salvation' and that's it. You don't have to actually [i]do anything[/i]... even though Jesus didn't only talk to people, he [i]did things[/i]... If 'grace' is some magic shampoo, you just say some words and it makes you better than other people, and it doesn't matter how you affect the world around you, then what did Jesus come for?[/quote]
Answering that question is, in my opinion, what has been the driving force behind Protestantism for centuries. Calvin brought Faith Alone it to its logical conclusion with his doctrine. Most Protestants have since rejected it, but the questioning still continues and often is seems leads them to the Catholic Church.

[thessalonian]

Brian,

I thank you for your comment. I was hoping you would show up. Your very comments imply that grace is only related to the saved and not seeing it in broader scope is exactly what I am talking about. Thank you for posting. Grace is simple. It's the power of God throgh the holy spirit, working in the world. That's my definition. What humbles me to my knees is a God that through grace thinking of men, brought about a WHOLE UNIVERSE. That is not complicated for those who do not have the capacity to grasp all of the science involved in making that happen but it is for the theologian and the mathemetician, and the chemist and biologist of whom God's grace depends for holding their respective fields in place. Grace is simple yet not. You want a god that can be completely understood by man. Are his ways our ways Brian? Does it not say "how inscrutable his ways"? The heavens cry out to the glory of God Brian. Now if someone looks at the heavens who is a pagan or non-christian and this moves them closer to Christianity, HOW CAN IT NOT BE GRACE? For it is a part of their path of salvation. Paul says to the pagan athenians, "in him WE (including them) live and move and have our being". Now an Athenian might have said, oh this is the one God he is speaking of and he has not been far from me all along. Hey, you know what he keep me from dying in that battle so I could hear the message of salvation. That was his grace. No Brian the message of grace is not complicated. We don't have to deny the works we do. We don't have to say, "ah we will just automically do them because we think he was a nice God for saving us". We can tap in to his grace and recognize that he is the source of the good that we do. Praise God.

Thanks for your post brian.

God bless

Edited December 3, 2007 by thessalonian

[BG45]

To copy and paste a PM on the topic basically:

In my personal experience, I never heard the word "Grace", except once or twice. I heard "you must be born again", and pray the Sinner's Prayer. After that you're forgiven. That's it.

In a summer camp I attended once, we had a question put forward to us. If a man accepts Christ as his Savior, does he go to Heaven if he becomes a serial killer? The answer was yes; once saved, always saved.

Shallow? Yes. Self-centered? A bit. Wrong? I am a prideful man, but yes, I believe it is.

The church I attended for eighteen years:
[url="http://www.clarksburgbaptistchurch.com/"]http://www.clarksburgbaptistchurch.com/[/url]

[url="http://www.clarksburgbaptistchurch.com/corevalues.cfm"]http://www.clarksburgbaptistchurch.com/corevalues.cfm[/url]
Notice the core values just...aren't explanatory at all? They just seem to pick and choose verses that have the word in them. I particularly cringe at how
[quote]Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.
- Acts 4:12[/quote]
Never actually mentions the name by which we may be saved...I know it's Jesus, yet, it would've helped them to put that on the site I imagine.

In my experience, not only in my home church, but in three or four others I've attended since...it's almost always been the same. The message of Grace is lost amidst the need to be relevant to modern society, and the need to be relevant is often more important than the need to preach Truth.

Sometimes, it is not so much the fact we ignore Scripture which disagrees with us, but rather, it is that we are never taught it. Rarely do we go and seek these answers for ourselves; sometimes because we don't even think to.

Anyhow, that's my experience on the issue,

[thessalonian]

Thanks for posting BG45.

Brian, hope you come back and defend your position of very limited grace.

[Briguy]

Hi Thess. You bring up a good point. In John 3:16 we see that God's grace is extended to a "World" He loved. In fact that he SO loved, which is even stronger then a regular love. Though I admit I don't know what the actual Greek word is that is translated into the SO. Anyway, this is tricky in a way because I don't want complicate what is not complicated. God's grace is far reaching because it spans thousands of years and thousands of miles. The salvation that came in Christ will have implications for the whole universe when the time of the new heavens and new earth come. The curse will be lifted and the full effects of God's grace will be felt. Now, if I understand you right you are saying that if God elected some and not others, doesn't that mean that His Grace was not imparted to those who were not elected? Maybe that would be true if God's Grace was a tangible object. If God gave a sticker to the "elect" and not others then perhaps your statement would be true. Grace though is intangible and certainly no object that can be held in ones hand. Grace is an expression of love and therefore is subject to what or whom the giver desires. Did God give a measure of grace to the people of Isreal that He did not impart on say the Philistine people? Well, yes as a chosen people we can see God's work through His people. The whole issue of the priesthood and the Levites. The priests could only come from one lineage. Though priests had access to god in a greater way then others and all because of what family they were born into.

OK, the point in that is that God's love and grace were poured out onto the world. How that grace is applied to the world, was and is always up to God.

Hope that defends my initial point and keeps the issue uncomplicated, where it belongs.
Thess., for the record I didn't disagree with much of what you said, nor do I think the Bible disagrees with it either.

Thanks for the discussion and the nice post,

In Christ who loved us first,
Brian

[thessalonian]

Thanks for the reply Brian. Quick answer for you:

"Now, if I understand you right you are saying that if God elected some and not others, doesn't that mean that His Grace was not imparted to those who were not elected?"

Nope that's not what it means. God calls all to salvation and gives the grace for all to be saved. The elect use their intellect and the laws written on their hearts ( a product of grace) to move toward God with their will, by grace. Their choice is by grace and assisted by grace, but it is nevertheless, theirs. All of this grace is not irresistable and so theirfore some recieve grace but their intellect does not use it to change and motivate their wills and so the grace fails to bring about the salvation of the soul. They are not the elect, not because of lack of grace but because of lack of action on that grace using the grace that is within them (ie. the laws on their heart and their intellect and will). The elect are the elect because of God's call. The damned are not a part of the elect because of their rejection of grace, not because of lack of grace or lack of being elect for lack of a better way of stating it. God elects. He does not unelect or not elect we get in to the error of double predestination.

Hope that helps.

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='Briguy' post='1432875' date='Dec 11 2007, 12:22 PM']Hi Thess. You bring up a good point. In John 3:16 we see that God's grace is extended to a "World" He loved. In fact that he SO loved, which is even stronger then a regular love. Though I admit I don't know what the actual Greek word is that is translated into the SO. Anyway, this is tricky in a way because I don't want complicate what is not complicated. God's grace is far reaching because it spans thousands of years and thousands of miles. The salvation that came in Christ will have implications for the whole universe when the time of the new heavens and new earth come. The curse will be lifted and the full effects of God's grace will be felt. Now, if I understand you right you are saying that if God elected some and not others, doesn't that mean that His Grace was not imparted to those who were not elected? Maybe that would be true if God's Grace was a tangible object. If God gave a sticker to the "elect" and not others then perhaps your statement would be true. Grace though is intangible and certainly no object that can be held in ones hand. Grace is an expression of love and therefore is subject to what or whom the giver desires. Did God give a measure of grace to the people of Isreal that He did not impart on say the Philistine people? Well, yes as a chosen people we can see God's work through His people. The whole issue of the priesthood and the Levites. The priests could only come from one lineage. Though priests had access to god in a greater way then others and all because of what family they were born into.

OK, the point in that is that God's love and grace were poured out onto the world. How that grace is applied to the world, was and is always up to God.

Hope that defends my initial point and keeps the issue uncomplicated, where it belongs.
Thess., for the record I didn't disagree with much of what you said, nor do I think the Bible disagrees with it either.

Thanks for the discussion and the nice post,

In Christ who loved us first,
Brian[/quote]

Along with Thessalonian's response, I'd like to add something here from the Gospels. In Matthew 23:37, we see from the very words of Jesus that he wills all people to himself.

[size=3][quote]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, [u]and [b]ye[/b] would not[/u]![/quote][/size]

In chastising the scribes and Pharisees, Jesus tells us that he wishes to gather his children [and based on John 3:16, we know Jesus died for all, so his children are all] under his wings like a hen, but it is [i]us[/i] who do not cooperate. If God gave the grace for only [i]some[/i] to accept salvation, then Jesus is lying here to the Pharisees by saying it was [i]them[/i] that refused to come unto him, because they would have never been able to do so.

[thessalonian]

Thanks for that passage PH. It goes very well with "God desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth".

[the 13th papist]

i actually just wrote my thesis on the very topic of grace, justification, and salvation. I would post the whole thing but its a little lengthy. I just wanted to make a few points:

Sources like the Heidleburg Catechism and Luther's works, are surprisingly very Catholic in their content. The formulations in them are very similar to the ones in the Catholic Catechism.

After doing in-depth exegesis of the Biblical texts, especially Ephesians, Galatians, Romans, and James; there does seem to be a difference between justification and salvation, or sanctification. Through the gift of grace and assent of faith, we are justified. That is, we are declared righteous before God, but also given the grace to actually become righteous. Justification is not sufficient to get us into heaven; it is alot like Baptism in that it kind of wipes the slate clean, but we can still dirty the slate back up. We can lose this justification by being unjust, namely by not being obedient the Christ-life within us, by rejecting Gd's grace and refusing to do the works he has prepared for us.

In modern Protestantism, there is definately a false dicotomy between faith and works. They seem to interpret the works of the law as good works. But they are correct in their insistance that works do not have the power to save, by themselves. However, they are required, just not sufficient.

[Briguy]

Hi guys, just time for a quick reply. One thing is that Justification by definition means "to prove". In the case of salvation it is, "to prove righteous" We are proved righteous to God because we are covered with the blood of Jesus. In this sense Justification has everything to do with salvation. Being justified before men is different. I will save that for now. OK, here is a verse that I use from time to time to defend my position on grace. I may have used it here before:

7"For so the Lord has commanded us,
'(CW)I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A (CX)LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES,
THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'"

48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying (CY)the word of the Lord; and as many as (CZ)had been appointed to eternal life believed.

You can check other translations and the wording is slightly different but the meaning is clear. Some Gentiles were appointed or ordained to salvation. Those who were, believed. You see, for the elect God takes the veil off their eyes and they see Him for who He is, the one and only true Living God. Unveiled, a person will believe. This handles the "belief" issue and does not compromise the many verses on election/chosen, like the one above (v. 48 that is).

There's my volley back to you Gerald, or others.

In Christ,
Brian

[thessalonian]

It's no volley brian. I agree with the passage. I agree with the concept of election. All in your passage recieved grace is my point that you are missing. Oh and by the way, not trying to be nasty here but, don't force your protestant veiw of justification on me.

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='Briguy' post='1434204' date='Dec 13 2007, 10:46 PM']Hi guys, just time for a quick reply. One thing is that Justification by definition means "to prove". In the case of salvation it is, "to prove righteous" We are proved righteous to God because we are covered with the blood of Jesus. In this sense Justification has everything to do with salvation. Being justified before men is different. I will save that for now. OK, here is a verse that I use from time to time to defend my position on grace. I may have used it here before:

7"For so the Lord has commanded us,
'(CW)I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A (CX)LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES,
THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'"

48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying (CY)the word of the Lord; and as many as (CZ)had been appointed to eternal life believed.

You can check other translations and the wording is slightly different but the meaning is clear. Some Gentiles were appointed or ordained to salvation. Those who were, believed. You see, for the elect God takes the veil off their eyes and they see Him for who He is, the one and only true Living God. Unveiled, a person will believe. This handles the "belief" issue and does not compromise the many verses on election/chosen, like the one above (v. 48 that is).

There's my volley back to you Gerald, or others.

In Christ,
Brian[/quote]

Having 23 years of Evangelical experience, this topic always brings back a warm, fuzzy sensation of the endless predestination debating that goes on in Protestant circles. How I remember it well! And, indeed, when none can claim authority, each is left with full rights to present his own argument and declare it God-inspired, even if it entirely contradicts another Christian's point-of-view.

As for Acts 13, here is a snippet from a Protestant [url="http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/james-whites-challenge.html"]website[/url] that debates the subject:

[size=3][quote]"...The Bible teaches ordination and election in other passages, and we believe everything the Bible has to say about election. The same Bible, though, teaches man’s responsibility to receive the Gospel. We see both of these truths in Acts 13. While verse 48 says ‘as many as were ordained to eternal life believed,’ [u][b]verse 46 says the Jews in that same situation had put salvation ‘from you’ and had judged themselves unworthy of everlasting life. The Calvinist wants to ignore or modify verse 46 while focusing on verse 48. That is the way false teachers use the Bible. They build their doctrine on pet verses and force everything else into that preconceived mold[/b][/u].”[/quote][/size]

Indeed, this is the strategy of most Calvinists, to ignore the passages that contradict their arguments. For example, where is the refutation of Matthew 23:37 as quoted above? It clearly shows, from the lips of Christ himself, that God wills us to salvation like hen sheltering her chicks, but that many of us simply refuse to go. Is Christ a liar?

And, of course, 1 Tim. 2:4-6 cannot be touched, either, as we hear God [b]"desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."[/b]

So what to do? Hmmm. Well, the best strategy for a Protestant evangelist would be to take the path of Charles Spurgeon and say that predestination and free will are complementary rather than contradictory and it is only our frail human understanding that keeps us from realizing this. From the [i]New Park Street Pulpit,[/i] 1858...

[size=3][quote]That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. ... [B]ut one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.[/quote][/size]

To preach any other interpretation from a Protestant perspective is highly problematic as it requires significant weeding out of the many verses that do not support a Calvinist view of predestination. For this very reason, such doctrine remains a minority position in Protestant theology.

[thessalonian]

Excellent post PH.

" Being justified before men is different."
I would assume your referring to James 2:24. This is one of the outs that non-catholics use with regard to that passage but why would we want to be justified before men? this I have to say is one of the worst arguements for that passage.