Women Priests

[carrdero]

[quote]Pope Clemens writes: Ridiculous. Do you believe the Scriptures or just consider them metaphorical constructs with no reality or Truth to them?[/quote]
The question was posted assuming that Jesus existed, performed miracles, taught the understanding that he did, died, resurrected and is coming again.

[quote]Prose: Jesus will come back as Jesus (as I understand it), which means, unless he had some sort of sex change in heaven, he can't come back as a girl.[/quote]
I would assume that if Jesus was God, he could come back as any species. I think a lot of emphasis on women being denied the priesthood may have to do with many religious perceptions of God being a male. I believe that GOD does not express a gender.

So the question remains unanswered.

If Jesus' second comeback performance appears in the form of a woman, would you pay her the same respect and consideration that you would when she existed as a man?

She is teaching the same understanding.

She is performing the same miracles.

It’s Jesus, but she’s a woman.

Is this important? Would Jesus coming back as a woman be a reason not to listen or follow or to hold this person in the same reverence that you did when this entity existed as a man?

Anybody want to take a crack at this? Also please include your reasons why or why not.

[carrdero]

[quote]Socrates writes: Catholic teaching often goes against the grain of the world.[/quote]
Not in this case. Prejudice exists and is prevalent among the religious and non-religious alike and it has been supported and encouraged for centuries and is counter-productive to what many religions are trying to teach and promote.

There are a few reasons why prejudice exists. Hate, fear and/or ignorance. There is no evidence and absolutely no reason to determine that organized religions who deny women the status of priesthood hate or abhor their female counterparts. If it is fear, then the reason for fearing women in a position as a priest is unclear and most likely a concern with the authorities who maintain the doctrine and keep these decisions.

Which leaves us with ignorance or the inablility and reason for some to recognize woman as equal to men, especially in this area of serving God. Though ignorance can be the most easiest reason to forgive, the willful continuance of such ignorance (especially in this day and age) does seem to damage a religion’s reputation, cause and purpose.

I suspect that there may be a combination of both ignorance and fear involved in this issue. That is to say, that if a particular religion announced that they were now accepting women into the priesthood, they would also have to provide a reason why and this explanation may bring even more reproach and criticisms upon a religion. People will start wondering what else the organization is misunderstanding. At the expense of elevating women to their proper human equality (this would include their physical, mental and spiritual abilities and attributes) I feel that the decision to allow women into the priesthood would be a small price to pay and could only be seen as the correct decision to make. I speak from the experienced position of witnessing what women can offer in the areas of spirituality.

or..... religions can forget about and cancel out the whole hierarchy and title business (priests, bishops, cardinals) and start everyone on an even level.

Edited November 30, 2007 by carrdero

[carrdero]

[quote]Pope Clement writes: Why can't a human "experience" tree-ness?[/quote]
Maybe in their next physical incarnation.
[quote]Pope Clement writes: Why can't an adult "experience" baby-ness?[/quote]
What? Do you mean in the infantile ignorance and the constant reliance of others? Some adults are already experiencing this.

[quote]Pope Clemens writes: So now it's a stereotype to recognize that "God made them male and female"? Tell you what - when men can naturally become mothers, women may be able to become fathers.[/quote]

The belief that God made them male and female is for our benefit, not GOD’s. What would be the importance of physical gender identification to GOD? What relevant consequences to GOD would it be for a man to behave masculine or a woman to react and respond like a female?

[quote]Pope Clement writes: If a man wants "the experience" of motherhood, why is this impossible?[/quote]
A woman cannot experience motherhood without a male donor so there is evidence of equality and shared responsibility. I cannot think of any male who is physically “built” for the experience of carrying and developing an infant inside of them for nine months.

The experience of parenthood can be played by any adult. When my father left my mother during my youth, my mother was both mother and father to me. Looking back, I realized that not only had she risen admirably to the occasion but that she was over-qualified in the love and caring of many children (she was a school cafeterian). But we are not talking about parenting here are we?

[quote]Pope Clement writes: I'd like to see you attend a worship service celebrated by Rev. Rover, if you think it's ridiculous, that's just your form of prejudice. Everyone has prejudices, mine are a preference for high Mass in English - however, that prejudice is not a requirement for everyone to celebrate Mass to my liking.[/quote]
It is not our individual small-mindedness and prejudices that are being argued and uncovered at this time. When certain religions reside certain opportunities or positions to certain members, it is their knowledge and understanding of GOD that will be exposed and scrutinized.

Edited November 30, 2007 by carrdero

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Lena' post='1427173' date='Nov 30 2007, 02:41 AM']nonsense? If only it could be dismissed as easily as that, there wouldn't [i]be [/i] an issue.[/quote]
Its an issue for feminists. The Church is the bride of Christ, not the groom.
If Jesus had wanted priestesses he would have had them. However he did not appointment women into positions of heirarchical authority, and nether do we. As males are head of the family, males have position of authority in the Church. They are called and ordained by the Church, to serve the Church.

[carrdero]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1427259' date='Nov 30 2007, 09:49 AM']Its an issue for feminists. The Church is the bride of Christ, not the groom.
If Jesus had wanted priestesses he would have had them.[/quote]
If Jesus wanted an accurate documented account of his full historical life and willful intentions he would have wrote, scripted and preserved it himself.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1427261' date='Nov 30 2007, 10:00 AM']If Jesus wanted an accurate documented account of his full historical life and willful intentions he would have wrote, scripted and preserved it himself.[/quote]
He did, they are called the evangelists. and the early church fathers

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

If you don't believe in the Jesus of the Scriptures, the Jesus that has revealed Himself to the Church, you only believe in a Jesus you have created in your head. Either way, the Jesus that you have constructed is not the one whom the Church knows. Reincarnation? Returning as a woman? Becoming a tree? These constructs are not Catholicism, nor Christianity in general. Your views may fit within a Hindu system, but not Catholicism.

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1427226' date='Nov 30 2007, 04:34 AM']There are a few reasons why prejudice exists. Hate, fear and/or ignorance. There is no evidence and absolutely no reason to determine that organized religions who deny women the status of priesthood hate or abhor their female counterparts. If it is fear, then the reason for fearing women in a position as a priest is unclear and most likely a concern with the authorities who maintain the doctrine and keep these decisions.[/quote]So there is no evidence of fear or hate. That should lead you to conclude that there is another reason why women can't be priests - perhaps because the Church sees no evidence that Jesus ever intended women to be priests.

[quote]Which leaves us with ignorance or the inablility and reason for some to recognize woman as equal to men, especially in this area of serving God. Though ignorance can be the most easiest reason to forgive, the willful continuance of such ignorance (especially in this day and age) does seem to damage a religion’s reputation, cause and purpose.[/quote]So unless every person is an ordained priest, they are unequal? You do realize that all baptized are part of the lay priesthood.. Your claim that all must serve in the exact same capacity is frivolous.

[quote]I suspect that there may be a combination of both ignorance and fear involved in this issue. That is to say, that if a particular religion announced that they were now accepting women into the priesthood, they would also have to provide a reason why and this explanation may bring even more reproach and criticisms upon a religion.[/quote]
At this time, it is socially/secularly more difficult to not ordain women. When Anglicans broke their own rules and 'ordained' women-priests they didn't provide any theological or Scriptural reasons, they just repeated the feminist mantra.

[quote]People will start wondering what else the organization is misunderstanding. At the expense of elevating women to their proper human equality (this would include their physical, mental and spiritual abilities and attributes) I feel that the decision to allow women into the priesthood would be a small price to pay and could only be seen as the correct decision to make. I speak from the experienced position of witnessing what women can offer in the areas of spirituality.[/quote]
So only priests can offer something in the area of spirituality? I think those who support these ideas have convoluted and strange views of Spirituality. Everything is relative, equal - Hinduism, Christian, whatever, it's all the same.. they just want the end result they desire, even with no Scriptural, Traditional support.. no matter if they destroy the Faith itself, as long as they can recreate it in their image. Which gets to the following:

[quote]or..... religions can forget about and cancel out the whole hierarchy and title business (priests, bishops, cardinals) and start everyone on an even level.[/quote]
Again, another convoluted view of equality. We could recreate society and have 360Million Presidents of the US, and 17Million PM of GB, and 1billion PMs of India, but I think such an animal would hardly be constructive or effective. In addition, we could stop handing out awards and recognition and just give everyone the same salary, career, etc. no matter of qualification, education, etc.. - what would that do, other than cripple society?

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Lena' post='1426867' date='Nov 29 2007, 05:49 PM']In my opinion.

Women are capable of becoming priests=Women can be priests.

BUT

The Church isn't capable of accepting that right now. For that to happen, major social change has to occur.
[b]
Social change is always occurring. [/b]

You nor I can guarantee what the far-off future will hold.[/quote]
It is not a social issue, as socrates is.

[quote name='Lena' post='1427173' date='Nov 30 2007, 01:41 AM']nonsense? If only it could be dismissed as easily as that, there wouldn't [i]be [/i] an issue.[/quote]

there isn't an issue. not within the church, anyway. John paul said, in ordinatio sacerdotalis

4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church's judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

[carrdero]

[quote]Pope Clement writes: If you don't believe in the Jesus of the Scriptures, the Jesus that has revealed Himself to the Church, you only believe in a Jesus you have created in your head. Either way, the Jesus that you have constructed is not the one whom the Church knows.[/quote]

I’ve read the book, I am familiar with the stories and the authors. I never said that I do not believe in the Jesus of the Scriptures, it may be that I am not as enamored or compelled by these writings as you are but there is very little I do not believe in. Anybody who has ever related to me on Phatmass knows that I would never stop anyone from believing…..until they thought that they were believing in something that they thought was more than a belief.

[quote]Pope Clement writes: So there is no evidence of fear or hate. That should lead you to conclude that there is another reason why women can't be priests - perhaps because the Church sees no evidence that Jesus ever intended women to be priests.[/quote]

Some religious organizations are not looking for evidence to ordain women to be priests. I think that some authorities prefer to remain dominated by males. They are faithfully playing this rule by a book, which as I mention earlier, is both primitive and archaic. If this book was written any earlier, I can imagine that some religious organizations would be relegated to dragging women behind from their hair.

There is also much speculation as to what Jesus’ existence and what his original intentions actually entailed as compared to what was exactly inscribed over 35 years later after his death. How woman were looked upon and perceived in the time of Jesus’ existence is also a concern and consideration in this matter. Much has changed for women since these primitive times and this includes the right to be perceived in an equal light. It is not because some feminist movement is demanding it; it is because we have eventually learned to understand the Truth that women deserve it. And Truth will always preside over one’s belief or faith. Many religions have been using this faith as an excuse and many faithful women have been surrendering to such faith because they are taugh that faith can not and should not be reasoned with.

[quote]Pope Clement writes: So only priests can offer something in the area of spirituality?[/quote]
Not only male and female priests but cardinals, elders, apostles, bishops, prophets, anyone can and should offer something in the areas of spirituality if one will only allow it.

[quote]Pope Clement writes: Everything is relative, equal - Hinduism, Christian, whatever, it's all the same.. they just want the end result they desire, even with no Scriptural, Traditional support.. no matter if they destroy the Faith itself, as long as they can recreate it in their image.[/quote]

So this is what you are concerned about? Preserving an outmoded faith and tradition at the expense of a woman’s respectable rights to life and living?

[quote]Pope Clement writes: I think those who support these ideas have convoluted and strange views of Spirituality.[/quote]
Lol. I can’t imagine them becoming any more strange and convoluted then what many religions are already proposing. The concept of ordaining women as priests is not a radical or strange idea. On the contrary, I believe it is a Natural, considerate one.

[quote]Pope Clement writes: Again, another convoluted view of equality. We could recreate society and have 360Million Presidents of the US, and 17Million PM of GB, and 1billion PMs of India, but I think such an animal would hardly be constructive or effective. In addition, we could stop handing out awards and recognition and just give everyone the same salary, career, etc. no matter of qualification, education, etc.. - what would that do, other than cripple society?[/quote]

We are still talking about religion here, aren’t we?

[mortify]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1427352' date='Nov 30 2007, 03:00 PM']there isn't an issue. not within the church, anyway. John paul said, in ordinatio sacerdotalis[/quote]

Ty alpha but I've heard people say that this does not forever close the issue, and that in the future there may be female priests.

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1427522' date='Nov 30 2007, 07:44 PM']I’ve read the book, I am familiar with the stories and the authors. I never said that I do not believe in the Jesus of the Scriptures, it may be that I am not as enamored or compelled by these writings as you are but there is very little I do not believe in. Anybody who has ever related to me on Phatmass knows that I would never stop anyone from believing…..until they thought that they were believing in something that they thought was more than a belief.[/quote]What is your definition of "belief" - it seems to be "flimsy nonsense that some idiots think is true".

[quote]Some religious organizations are not looking for evidence to ordain women to be priests. I think that some authorities prefer to remain dominated by males. They are faithfully playing this rule by a book, which as I mention earlier, is both primitive and archaic. If this book was written any earlier, I can imagine that some religious organizations would be relegated to dragging women behind from their hair.[/quote]There is no evidence to be looked at, we "play" by Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the teaching of the Church - nothing in any of that shows women as priests. We don't innovate, we follow the Faith as handed to us by our spiritual mothers and fathers.

[quote]There is also much speculation as to what Jesus’ existence and what his original intentions actually entailed as compared to what was exactly inscribed over 35 years later after his death.[/quote]
How about we look at Jesus existence and His actions - what evidence did you see? The argument from silence is not valid.

[quote]How woman were looked upon and perceived in the time of Jesus’ existence is also a concern and consideration in this matter.[/quote]
How did Jesus view women?

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

[quote]Much has changed for women since these primitive times and this includes the right to be perceived in an equal light.[/quote]
All are equal in Christ, but not everyone has the same role. The lay-priesthood is just as important, if not more so at times, than the ordained priesthood.

[quote]It is not because some feminist movement is demanding it; it is because we have eventually learned to understand the Truth that women deserve it.[/quote]
Deserve what? Is the priesthood a prize to be awarded?

[quote]And Truth will always preside over one’s belief or faith.[/quote]
To you faith and belief are opposed to truth. For us, Faith and belief ARE Truth.

[quote]Many religions have been using this faith as an excuse and many faithful women have been surrendering to such faith because they are taugh that faith can not and should not be reasoned with.[/quote]
Such nonsense. People can reason and completely disagree with your view.

[quote]Not only male and female priests but cardinals, elders, apostles, bishops, prophets, anyone can and should offer something in the areas of spirituality if one will only allow it.[/quote]
One doesn't need a title to offer something in the area of spirituality. You seem to be claiming that without a title, a person is worthless. To the Catholic Christian it is quite the opposite, the title's are secondary to the dignity of the individual person - all human persons have inherent dignity made in the image and likeness of God.

[quote]So this is what you are concerned about? Preserving an outmoded faith and tradition at the expense of a woman’s respectable rights to life and living?[/quote] So not being a priest deprives a woman from life and living? This is absurdity beyond reason.

[quote]Lol. I can’t imagine them becoming any more strange and convoluted then what many religions are already proposing. The concept of ordaining women as priests is not a radical or strange idea. On the contrary, I believe it is a Natural, considerate one.[/quote]Why would you want anyone to be a priest, since the whole idea of priesthood is ridiculous, outmoded, and dumb? Why don't we just get rid of the priesthood all together, and burn the outmoded archaic text of the Bible while we're at it?

[carrdero]

[quote]Pope Clement writes: What is your definition of "belief" - it seems to be "flimsy nonsense that some idiots think is true".[/quote]
I should be the only Phatmass member diagnosed with morbid obesity with all the words members put in my mouth.

Beliefs are thoughts, ideas and concepts that anyone can collect, compare, reason and knowingly conclude to a Truth or an UnTruth. Beliefs aren’t meant to romanced, preserved or favored they are meant to be resolved one way or another.

[quote]Pope Clement writes:There is no evidence to be looked at, we "play" by Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the teaching of the Church - nothing in any of that shows women as priests. We don't innovate, we follow the Faith as handed to us by our spiritual mothers and fathers.[/quote]

And it is clear that the rules of this “game” have been incompletely copied from an unreachable resource, in favor of a male dominated “playing” field.

[quote]Pope Clement writes:How about we look at Jesus existence and His actions - what evidence did you see?[/quote]

I see a group of devoted authors who are attempting an agenda to depict what they would like others to believe is the perfect life of a perfect man who lived 12,045 days but have only roughly, obliquely accounted for 373.

[quote]Pope Clement writes: Deserve what? Is the priesthood a prize to be awarded?[/quote]
No but life and the choice and opportunity for living it, is the award that should be afforded. There are still some religions that are not affording this opportunity and are delegating weak, narrow-minded consolation prizes.

[quote]Pope Clement writes: To you faith and belief are opposed to truth. For us, Faith and belief ARE Truth.[/quote]
Then you are completely misunderstanding the ideas of faith and belief and how they qualify towards Truth and Untruth. You may want to revisit and re-examine these concepts.

[quote]Pope Clement writes: Such nonsense. People can reason and completely disagree with your view.[/quote]
And people can completely disagree with any particular religion’s view. Can you imagine how many females over the decades have converted from a relgion because faithful (not Truthful) assumption has discouraged and denied one from a particular position? Can you imagine how many women have pursued their own ministry in another religion that was more accepting and tolerant of women applying for religious leadership opportunities?

[quote]Pope Clement writes: One doesn't need a title to offer something in the area of spirituality.[/quote]
Then let us dismiss them altogether.
[quote]Pope Clement writes: You seem to be claiming that without a title, a person is worthless.[/quote]
No, I seem to be indicating that without a title a person may become unrecognizable.
[quote]Pope Clement writes: To the Catholic Christian it is quite the opposite, the title's are secondary to the dignity of the individual person - all human persons have inherent dignity made in the image and likeness of God.[/quote]
Until that human is recognized as a woman who wants to conduct a mass or other ceremonial procession.
[quote]Pope Clement writes: So not being a priest deprives a woman from life and living? This is absurdity beyond reason. Why would you want anyone to be a priest, since the whole idea of priesthood is ridiculous, outmoded, and dumb?[/quote]
The want and desire is not mine to decide. It is for the purpose and desire of the individual who encourages the beliefs of their inherit religion that must decide if this lifestyle is purposeful to their existence.

[color="#000080"]Pope Clement writes:Why would you want anyone to be a priest, since the whole idea of priesthood is ridiculous, outmoded, and dumb? Why don't we just get rid of the priesthood all together, and burn the outmoded archaic text of the Bible while we're at it?[/color]

Though I realize that your over-reaction was meant to be sarcastic you are addressing someone who believes that everyone has a Bible in and around them that would be worth writing and sharing with others. The cherishable book that was written centuries ago is really starting to show its age and has designated itself as a solid period piece.

I also believe that organized religion does not have the authority or the qualifications to teach individuals purpose and that this search and understanding is best realized and accomplished by the individual.

The segregated churches, temples, synagogues and halls seem to not be about GOD or the irrelevant worship of a deity that doesn’t require it but it seems to be all about the people who frequent them.

Edited December 1, 2007 by carrdero

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

This is why you are not a Catholic, do not understand Catholicism, and cannot speak for Catholicism. How can you claim to know what we should or should not do when 1)you do not share our faith 2)do not belong to our organization 3)do not understand our organization 4)do not understand our beliefs 5)do not recognize that Catholic priesthood is in service of the laity not above it 6)that Catholic priesthood is intrinsically linked to fatherhood 7)don't care about our Church or it's members except to transform us to your personal judgments 8)do not recognize the sources we consider authoritative and binding

[quote name='carrdero' post='1427748' date='Dec 1 2007, 10:33 AM']I should be the only Phatmass member diagnosed with morbid obesity with all the words members put in my mouth.

Beliefs are thoughts, ideas and concepts that anyone can collect, compare, reason and knowingly conclude to a Truth or an UnTruth. Beliefs aren’t meant to romanced, preserved or favored they are meant to be resolved one way or another.
And it is clear that the rules of this “game” have been incompletely copied from an unreachable resource, in favor of a male dominated “playing” field.
I see a group of devoted authors who are attempting an agenda to depict what they would like others to believe is the perfect life of a perfect man who lived 12,045 days but have only roughly, obliquely accounted for 373.
No but life and the choice and opportunity for living it, is the award that should be afforded. There are still some religions that are not affording this opportunity and are delegating weak, narrow-minded consolation prizes.
Then you are completely misunderstanding the ideas of faith and belief and how they qualify towards Truth and Untruth. You may want to revisit and re-examine these concepts.
And people can completely disagree with any particular religion’s view. Can you imagine how many females over the decades have converted from a relgion because faithful (not Truthful) assumption has discouraged and denied one from a particular position? Can you imagine how many women have pursued their own ministry in another religion that was more accepting and tolerant of women applying for religious leadership opportunities?
Then let us dismiss them altogether.

No, I seem to be indicating that without a title a person may become unrecognizable.

Until that human is recognized as a woman who wants to conduct a mass or other ceremonial procession.

The want and desire is not mine to decide. It is for the purpose and desire of the individual who encourages the beliefs of their inherit religion that must decide if this lifestyle is purposeful to their existence.

[color="#000080"]Pope Clement writes:Why would you want anyone to be a priest, since the whole idea of priesthood is ridiculous, outmoded, and dumb? Why don't we just get rid of the priesthood all together, and burn the outmoded archaic text of the Bible while we're at it?[/color]

Though I realize that your over-reaction was meant to be sarcastic you are addressing someone who believes that everyone has a Bible in and around them that would be worth writing and sharing with others. The cherishable book that was written centuries ago is really starting to show its age and has designated itself as a solid period piece.

I also believe that organized religion does not have the authority or the qualifications to teach individuals purpose and that this search and understanding is best realized and accomplished by the individual.

The segregated churches, temples, synagogues and halls seem to not be about GOD or the irrelevant worship of a deity that doesn’t require it but it seems to be all about the people who frequent them.[/quote]

The ultimate question is - why do you care whether Catholics ordain women priests or not, since it will not have any effect on you positively or negatively, but will destroy our Faith as we understand it? Is your goal to destroy our faith, since you see it as "archaic, backward, outmoded, etc"?

The religion you espouse is about individualism and selfishness, our Faith is not about 'me', it's about Him; it's about community and selflessness. Our world views can never live in harmony - the twain shall never meet.

Edited December 2, 2007 by PopeClementI(MorClemis)