Women Priests

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

I never stated that Deaconess were the same as Deacons, but their roles varied in the various Churches. Each Church has to explore it's history and decide accordingly. I know that the Greek Orthodox have restarted 'ordaining' some nuns as deaconess, the Coptic Orthodox never stopped...
[quote name='Raphael' post='1426326' date='Nov 28 2007, 01:35 PM']Women can't be deacons, either...at least not ordained deacons. The form you speak of has never been a sacramental diaconate.[/quote]

Edited November 28, 2007 by PopeClementI(MorClemis)

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Graciela' post='1426016' date='Nov 27 2007, 10:07 PM']Theologically, I am most concerned about what it means about God to say that the church cannot ordain women. Is this an all-powerful God or not? The bridal language of the relationship between presbyters and the church is not an early church understanding, and so while revelation may be "closed," I am not so confident that our human understanding has fully apprehended the mysteries of the Incarnation, life, death and Resurrection of the Lord.
If God can become Incarnate and be fully present in the Blessed Sacrament, why hold so tightly to the notion that God can only work through human males to provide the sacraments? Didn't a human woman provide the physical material of which Jesus was made- why isn't that seen as evidence that God works sacramentally through women? I realize I am analogizing the Incarnation to sacraments here, but I see a correlation between the Incarnation and the Real Presence in the Blessed Sacrament.[/quote]

Just because God is all-powerful does not mean that he does everything he has the power to do. God does what is best for his people; Jesus, for example, could have called upon legions of angels to defend him as he was arrested. Instead, he was arrested, beaten, scourged, driven to carry a burden like an animal, and finally crucified (naked, no less). God does not do what 'feels' best. he does what IS best. It isn't a question of what God CAN do, but a question of what God has allowed the Church to do.

Women do work sacramentally in marriage. They do NOT work sacramentally as a priest. Mary giving birth was not the same as a priest.

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1426277' date='Nov 28 2007, 12:34 PM']The Teacher's job is not to give her feelings and interpretations. It is to teach what is in the curriculum. If I was to work at a Jewish private school, I would have to teach the Jewish law, history, belief and not give my Catholic stance, despite the fact it's right. It's not my place in the classroom. If I don't like it, I can leave. Same goes w/ the teacher. The teacher can get out if following rubricks is unsatisfactory.[/quote]

I know, I was just saying what his 'excuses' are.

[quote name='carrdero' post='1426287' date='Nov 28 2007, 12:44 PM']Nor am I insinuating that churches spurn or belittle women but if a woman wants [b][i]the experience [/i][/b]of becoming part of the priesthood this is denied because...why?
Faith is a precarious support to begin with and I would presume that this includes the maintaining of any form of prejudice.
I look onto an individual's ministry or the priesthood as a purposeful calling, a valid experience that should be available for any person who is committed and ready to devote their life for such a cause or occurrence and I believe that GOD would not set this privilege aside for just a particular race, creed, color or gender.[/quote]

Priesthood isn't about "the experience" either, if by experience you mean how it feels. If that is what you mean, then men who just want the experience shouldnt be ordained either. it IS about a calling, and just wanting to know what it's like is not good enough.

Well, God did set it apart, and has done so for 6,000 years. Just look at the old testament. It is indisputable that the priesthood is something only males are called to do.

[aalpha1989]

double post

Edited November 28, 2007 by aalpha1989

[Lil Red]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1425927' date='Nov 27 2007, 07:08 PM']not sure...I've brought it up with the school chaplain and he describes it as "wacky"...he even said he "might" approach the teacher(s) in question, but I'm not sure that anything has actually happened. I talked to the chaplain about 2 1/2 months ago, so if nothing has happened since then I'm not sure that anythign will happen.[/quote]
or he could've simply forgotten that you and him talked. chaplains, i'm sure, are busy people, just like priests, teachers, principals, etc. remind him nicely that you two talked about it.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1425804' date='Nov 27 2007, 06:02 PM']Someday, through enlightenment, maybe this authority will be granted to women.[/quote]

The only one with real authority is Jesus. If the Church had authority in her own right, then there might be no problem at all with womens' ordination. But this, like more of our lives than we like to admit, is outside of our control.

Besides, this whole "enlightenment" thing ain't anything new... reaching out for "enlightment" is exactly the temptation the serpent offered Adam and Eve. In every generation since, people have sought after this ever elusive englightment. We've even had a relatively recent age in history called The Enlightenment. But humanity still suffers under warfare, murder, forced prostitution, rape, and all sorts of heinous crimes.

Let's just say women could be ordained. Would that somehow make the world more perfect? Would it bring any more harmony or understanding? Perhaps God has his reasons for reserving certain roles to particular genders, because it does force us to understand true equality as something deeper than what you are on the surface.

[quote name='Graciela' post='1426016' date='Nov 27 2007, 11:07 PM']As for women priests in the early church, I am interested in the existence of images in the catacombs of women presiding at Eucharist and even wearing the pallium. As for names, Prisca comes to mind. I also think that some biblical scholars have noted that names in the epistles were changed from female names to masculine ones, which may be obscuring something about women's roles in the early house churches.[/quote]

Click [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Women_and_the_Priesthood.asp"]this link[/url] ironmonk provided earlier and you'll find plenty of references to deaconesses and presbyteresses. Christians have debated this same issue from the beginning. "So there is nothing new under the sun" (Ec 1:9).

That said, the discussion as to why God would reserve ordination for men is a valid one. Obviously, the Catholic Church isn't trying to be mean-spirited and our view of God is not that of an arbitrary lawmaker. God established all the laws of physics for there to be an order to Creation and each law exists for a reason. Likewise, God has reasons for establishing an order to the Church and sacraments. It's not just for the heck of it. So, how about we get in touch with our Eastern mindset and discuss the "why" rather than the "what"?

[quote name='Graciela' post='1426016' date='Nov 27 2007, 11:07 PM']If God can become Incarnate and be fully present in the Blessed Sacrament, why hold so tightly to the notion that God can only work through human males to provide the sacraments? Didn't a human woman provide the physical material of which Jesus was made- why isn't that seen as evidence that God works sacramentally through women? I realize I am analogizing the Incarnation to sacraments here, but I see a correlation between the Incarnation and the Real Presence in the Blessed Sacrament.[/quote]

Of course God works sacramentally through women, particularly the two sacraments that all Christians celebrate validly: Baptism and Marriage. Anybody can validly baptize another person and the celebrants of marriage are the husband and wife. In that case, the marriage isn't valid [i]without[/i] a woman present... go figure ;-)

As for a woman providing Jesus' physical body, that seems to me more of a motherly, life-giving role than a sacramental one. It's certainly no less important or less equal, but a different role nonetheless.

[quote name='carrdero' post='1426150' date='Nov 28 2007, 04:41 AM']There are still some religions that have not caught up with the times and though for many years in our history it was difficult for women to be heard or to obtain the same rights as their male counterparts. Many decades women had to fight and struggle to receive equal opportunities as men. Some still see women as unequal to men in certain responsibilities and positions. This kind of thinking can only be described as archaic.[/quote]

However, the question of who can be ordained is about the roles men and women serve in society and family life, not simply the equality of the sexes. If the motivation behind an exclusively male priesthood was to keep women out of influential positions in the Church, then not only would that objective have failed miserably, but the Church would immediately allow womens' ordination as she completely affirms sexual equality.

But that's not the case... there are deeper reasons for the male priesthood than simply equality. With everything Jesus and Christianity did for elevating the status of women in Roman society, why did he stop short of ordaining female apostles? What motivation did the Church have to maintain this Tradition in the face of heavy persecution?

[quote name='carrdero' post='1426150' date='Nov 28 2007, 04:41 AM']I have participated in other debates on this subject and I have yet to be see anyone produce infallible evidence or explain satisfactorily, the qualifying factor that would make a woman unsuitable for the same opportunity or position as a male priest. What is it exactly that a woman has or that a woman is missing that would prevent her from entering or being ordained into any priesthood?[/quote]

I can't say that I've read much on this particular question either, but if you could find some answers anywhere, I'll bet Sr. Sara Butler's book [url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1595250166/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2YKSI20KMXUFE&colid=2HPP6QR5IGHUG"]The Catholic Priesthood and Women[/url] would be helpful (haven't read it, but it's on my list). There is one reviewer who appears to give a pretty good synopsis of her arguments. There's one very good point in there: "Until sacrament is understood, priesthood cannot be understood." Deacons, priests, and bishops serve as sacramental icons of Christ in the Church. It's alltogether distinct from their specific job responsibilities as pastors, teachers, or administrators. There is no comparison to the priesthood anywhere in the world, just as there is no comparison to the sacraments, so applying the rules of society to this sacramental reality is like putting the skin of an orange on an apple.

Just to throw this out there, ultimately nobody reaches to God outside of his grace. That we even receive sacraments is purely a gift of God. Perhaps part of God's reason (or one thing we can take of it) for the male priesthood is to remind us that our faith and the priesthood we all share as believers are gifts of grace. What we bring to the table is never sufficient; only God's grace is sufficient. As a male, how can I take any pride in the fact that I'm discerning for the priesthood, or view the priesthood as a position of power or dominion over others? The only reason I'm even eligible is because I somehow ended up with a Y chromosome at conception, just as the only reason I'm a Christian is because God granted me that seed of faith as a young child. In either case, it's not what I offer God that's important, but that I simply offer everything, and know that it's still not enough.

Edited November 28, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[prose]

I haven't read this whole thread, so I am sorry if I am repeating anything.

[quote name='carrdero' post='1425563' date='Nov 27 2007, 12:59 AM']Well then if we cannot resort to any historical evidence, let us then examine from what we know and understand today. The Episcopalian faith successfully ordains women priests and they are valued as knowledgable teachers and caring leaders over the flock with absolutely no evidence of GOD becoming offended at all. I also know several female ordained ministers and reverends who are responsible in their ministry and take their calling very seriously.[/quote]

Their "calling" is not to the priesthood. Women ARE valuable and knowledgeable teachers caring, in their way, for God's flock. A priest is not a "leader" a priest is a servant. It is not a role to be envied, but rather one to be prayed for. When a priest thinks he is the center of the Church, he is doing a disservice to his calling.


[quote name='carrdero' post='1425804' date='Nov 27 2007, 04:02 PM']Someday, through enlightenment, maybe this authority will be granted to women.[/quote]

Nope. sorry.

[carrdero]

[quote]Prose writes: Women ARE valuable and knowledgeable teachers caring, in their way, for God's flock. A priest is not a "leader" a priest is a servant. It is not a role to be envied, but rather one to be prayed for. When a priest thinks he is the center of the Church, he is doing a disservice to his calling.[/quote]
I am not debating the caring qualities of a woman. I am not debating the established responsibilities of the priesthood. When a person applies for a position that they are adequately qualified for and instead are turned away or offered some other position other than the one that they applied based on their gender, this is described as discrimination. It is as ugly a word in meaning as it is in practice.

[quote]Prose writes: Their "calling" is not to the priesthood.[/quote]
The priesthood [b][i]is[/i] [/b]the position. It [b][i]is[/i][/b] the experience. If a woman desires to fill this position, if she qualifies and requests for the experience, there should be no reason why a woman could nof fulfill this responsibility. A biased or discriminating excuse that is disguised or based loosely on outmoded faith should not be the prerequisite that deters someone from obtaining this purpose and position.

Edited November 29, 2007 by carrdero

[Norseman82]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1426150' date='Nov 28 2007, 03:41 AM']There are still some religions that have not caught up with the times[/quote]

With regards to faith and morals, the problem is NOT that religion has failed to keep up with "the times", but rather that "the times" have gone beyond the bounds that the Church has set for it.

[carrdero]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1426345' date='Nov 28 2007, 02:54 PM']Women do work sacramentally in marriage. They do NOT work sacramentally as a priest.[/quote]

How adequately and academically does a nun work in marriage?

[carrdero]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1426464' date='Nov 28 2007, 08:12 PM']With regards to faith and morals, the problem is NOT that religion has failed to keep up with "the times", but rather that "the times" have gone beyond the bounds that the Church has set for it.[/quote]
This almost reminds of the Mormons, who after Joseph Smith died, declared blacks the curse of Ham and Cain and made them ineligible to be ordained into the priesthood. Apparently it took this never-changing God over 1500 years to proclaim and humans to receive the revelation that it was alright to ordain blacks (albeit male members only) to the priesthood at a very convenient time during the Civil Right movement. I guess God must have been emotionally effected by our protests.

[Lena]

Sometimes I really wonder about this though---besides the fact that it's been tradition to have male priests, what do male have that qualify them for priesthood, that females lack? Seriously? Because in terms of biology, that's all I can differentiate. Everything else has not been constructed by God directly---where did gender roles come from? They've evolved also. I understand this idea of "separate but equal" roles that keep getting discussed and to an extent I find that an interesting argument. But that is changing, as culture is constantly changing. And the Church is a part of that culture, though I'm not saying it should be a direct reflection on it. I'm just trying to make sense of the matter, so excuse any wild tangents. I haven't read any compelling reasons that I have completely agreed with or understood to fully answer the question.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Lena' post='1426520' date='Nov 28 2007, 09:11 PM']Sometimes I really wonder about this though---besides the fact that it's been tradition to have male priests, what do male have that qualify them for priesthood, that females lack? Seriously? Because in terms of biology, that's all I can differentiate. Everything else has not been constructed by God directly---where did gender roles come from? They've evolved also. I understand this idea of "separate but equal" roles that keep getting discussed and to an extent I find that an interesting argument. But that is changing, as culture is constantly changing. And the Church is a part of that culture, though I'm not saying it should be a direct reflection on it. I'm just trying to make sense of the matter, so excuse any wild tangents. I haven't read any compelling reasons that I have completely agreed with or understood to fully answer the question.[/quote]
You downplay the biology aspect, but that is a BIG deal. God created us differently, and that is important! Biologically, women can do things men cannot--they can give birth. Women have a unique relationship with God in the creation of a child. Men cannot, therefore, this is a way that men can have a unique relationship with God.

[Lena]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1426527' date='Nov 28 2007, 09:21 PM']You downplay the biology aspect, but that is a BIG deal. God created us differently, and that is important! Biologically, women can do things men cannot--they can give birth. Women have a unique relationship with God in the creation of a child. Men cannot, therefore, this is a way that men can have a unique relationship with God.[/quote]

so is biology destiny then?

I know biology is important, heck it's what has kept everything going. But the cultural connotations applied to biology? how should that directly influence priesthood?

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1426460' date='Nov 28 2007, 07:03 PM']...
The priesthood [b][i]is[/i] [/b]the position. It [b][i]is[/i][/b] the experience. If a woman desires to fill this position, if she qualifies and requests for the experience, there should be no reason why a woman could nof fulfill this responsibility. A biased or discriminating excuse that is disguised or based loosely on outmoded faith should not be the prerequisite that deters someone from obtaining this purpose and position.[/quote]
the non-Catholic tells the Catholics...
So since when do you have more knowledge about the Catholic priesthood than a Catholic such as I or Raph, etc?

[quote name='carrdero' post='1426488' date='Nov 28 2007, 07:52 PM']This almost reminds of the Mormons, who after Joseph Smith died, declared blacks the curse of Ham and Cain and made them ineligible to be ordained into the priesthood. Apparently it took this never-changing God over 1500 years to proclaim and humans to receive the revelation that it was alright to ordain blacks (albeit male members only) to the priesthood at a very convenient time during the Civil Right movement. I guess God must have been emotionally effected by our protests.[/quote]

What are you onto now? We're talking about the Catholic priesthood, not some psudo-priests from a twisted religion made by a crazy American...

[KnightofChrist]

[url="http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/09_priestesses.htm"]Women and the Priesthood[/url]

A talk by Peter Kreeft